Another Russian adoptee has died, this time in Herdon, Virginia.
Yesterday, Chase Harrison, 21 months, of Purcellville, died after being left in his adoptive father’s Yukon for “several hours.” (here, here, and here. ) The father, Miles, Harrison, 49, was supposed to drop the boy off at daycare, but drove to work instead, “forgetting” that the boy was in the car. Chase was discovered around 5:00 PM last night when a co-worker reported he saw something in Harrison’s SUV. (The windows are tinted.) Yeterday’s temperature reached 91 degrees. According to a study from the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, the temperature inside the Yukon would have ranged from 131-172 degrees.
Miles Harrison, is the managing relocation manager for Project Solutions Group. He collapsed in the parking lot and has been hospitalized since Chase was pronounced dead. Police expect to charge him with manslaughter, which carries as much as a 10 year prison term. The adoptive mother, Carol Harrison, 45, is not implicated. They have no other children.
Chase was adopted three months ago, but no further information on the adoption has been released.
GO TO NOBODY IS FORGOTTEN–NOTHING IS FORGOTTEN FOR A COMPENDIUM OF ALL MY POSTS ON THE DEATH AND ABUSE OF RUSSIAN ADOPTEES. FOREVER FAMIY– FOREVER DEAD HAS A SUMMARY OF EACH CASE.
How pitiful this is I say put the male adopter in a car and leave him till he is dead.
so disturbing in many ways why is a person who is older than most grandparents allowed to adopt a toddler?
Way to old to be adopting but as usual there are no regulations on who and what age one can adopt a baby.
Disgusting
Gale
Poor Chase.
🙁
Sadly these incidents of babys & toddlers being left in cars on hot days is not uncommon in the United States.
All I can say is THINK people! Your child is your most precious cargo!
E.Case
Yeah, Sadly they seem to happen to quiet a few adoptee’s. Oh, well there will always be another chance to adopt.
I am sure that the last adopter who “accidently” dropped the child she adopted on its head…will get acquitted especially if the adopter friendly state of Utah has anything to do about it.
And the poor father had to get medical treatment..too bad the little boy didn’t have a chance for that same treatment…
gale
Gale:
OUCH to your comments…some of which crossed my mind.
Dad was 49, mom Carol was 45, little Chase was 21 months. They sold their home in Leesburg in April for $769K. Don’t know how much they paid for their new home in Purcellville, but judging from the footage I saw from the local ABC news affiliate, it was a nice home.
Yet, that man is going to have to live with himself for the rest of his life for doing what he did. Not a good place to be in.
Anyone who treats an innocent child with such cavalier disregard SHOULD have to live with guilt. I hope it wakes him up at night.
What IS IT with these Russian adopted children? Are they considered “disposable?” It makes me want to cry.
PS; I should have said “what is it with the ADOPTERS of these Russian children…etc.,etc.” These poor kids have done nothing but wind up in a ruthless industry as “merchandise.”
It is, sadly, a fact that, here in hot, humid, tacky Florida, that kind of slow, torturous death has come to quite a few children.
*GACK*
Um excuse me on the age thing though LOL I am 41.5 with a 15mth old ! (biological child though!)
Its not age though – its just stupid people.
HOW THE FUCK can you forget a child ?? HOW THE FUCKING FUCK ? (sorry Marley!)
It makes me sick to my heart and everywhere else…that poor baby…so unfair so wrong..
So is the wife going to divorce this dickhead for this?
I would !
Oh and that is why I believe that Mothers (of fathers – im not sexist -but preferably Mothers 😉 ) belong at HOME With the baby until Schooling
This sort of shit wouldnt happen. Fancy putting an adopted baby into daycare FUCK ME..do these people have no brains?
The baby needs BONDING ATTACHMENT like HELLO fuckwits
Pftt
JMHO!
Let’s put our prejudice’s on hold for a bit, before Chase makes the honor roll of dead Russian adoptees. I, for one, see no link between his adoption and his undoubtedly terrifying death. Unfortunately, this has happened to many children in recent years, including some in my home state.
Mourn for Chase, perhaps even feel compassion or anger for his father (or male adopter, if you must), but let’s reserve judgment on this point.
J.
Male adopter/adoptive father
International, Class of ’92-93.
I don’t reserve
judgement for anyone I was judged by those who thought they would be a better parent because I was a young mom!
Those same judgers threw my baby son into daycare as the faux marriage broke up and guess what the adopteress was god forbid “a single MOM”
If one is able to adopt why NOT stay home and take care of the child they adopt is that too much to ask..or is it the American way to buy what you can and totally disregard what you purchased after the fact!
Harsh, is dying in a SUV because you were forgotten, THATS harsh,,,and where is the public on all these Russian Adopted deaths?? no where exactly where Pertman/ Donaldson, Institute and NFCA are SILENT…while these expendable purchases are dropped on their heads left in cars to die..and I AM BEING harsh. I think NOT!
I reserve my judgement for the poor baby..and the father who got the medical care
AFTER finding out he had caused the death of his purchase..please.
Gale
BSE Class of 66
OH shoot that was supposed to say Mothers OR Fathers ! not Mothers of Fathers LOL
I WILL NOT put my prejudice on hold this bastard needs to be held accountable. HE Killed his adopted child.willfully -no – maliciously – no – but did he kill his 21mth old adopted baby son – YES
When you adopt you have MORE of an obligation to PARENT than a biological one…………..MORE – why don’t 99 percent of adoptive parents get that ?
MINE DID
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Really..???
How many Russian
adoptee’s have to die before a link is made?
Nothing from Donaldson Institute nothing from NFCA business as usual..
Seems being a Russian adoptee is dangerous in America..guess it depends on what side of the equation one is on whether one thinks this is true…how many Russian adoptee’s are there on that list now? Marley?
Oh who’s keeping track of that not Marley an adoptee who finds it “coincidental” that there might just might be a link to being Russian and adopted in America.
Gale
BSE Mother 66
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This comment has been removed by the author.
See, no, I have little to no empathy for the poor man who locked his bought-baby in the car for hours until he died in the heat. I have no compassion for the woman who entrusted this putz with the care of the child that she purchased, either. If you determine that you are better/smarter/richer/more qualified/more entitled/more perfect for the role of parent to a child than the natural parents then you had better make certain that you are damn near perfect. There IS indeed a higher bar for adopters, especially ones who are old enough to be grandparent to this child, ergo, old enough to know better!
This is death by torture. Death by slow roasting! I hope that if this guy doesn’t rot in prison, he roasts in another place later.
“Improper Adoptee” – I love the sign you have in your photo – it reminds me of a few rallies I used to attend.
Gale: Marley, myself and a few others began to notice the high level of Russian adoptees being murdered at the hands of their AParents. Like yourself, I am thankful to Marley. She has had the courage & tenacity to post these deaths. If she didn’t, nobody else would have. Marley has given names & faces to those children. God knows neither the agencies who placed them nor their AParents had so much concern for them.
My husband & I were talking last night. When we adopted our son from Bulgaria, after he’d been home a month, we placed him into day care for 2 hours a day. NOT a full 8 hours. [I tend to agree with Jane – my husband is our son’s primary care giver]
Here’s my question. The day care center/worker/sitter the Harrisons used – how come they didn’t contact the mother or father to say Chase hadn’t been dropped off?
E.Case
There is all the difference in the world between a situation where a parent beats their child to death and an accident. This appears to be a horrible accident and tragedy and it shouldn’t have occurred. Nevertheless, parents everywhere in the country have made/make/and will make this mistake again.
Such a parent maybe guilty of criminal negligence and may receive a short jail sentence. However, I suspect this punishment pales compared to the guilt they feel over the tragedy.
Someone who has the inability to distinguish between intentional child abuse and this type of negligence is a pretty poor excuse for a human being.
Seems over at alt. there are complaints that bringing these deaths to the forefront is Boring???
Boring,,I think NOT!
Ignoring,,is more like it..the media isn’t EVEN covering the latest death.
Why???? the Sacred Cow of adoption and the greedy big business it is along with all those clamoring for a baby, any baby just as long as it doesn’t interfere with the adopter’s life too busy to put the bought kid into daycare. COME ON!!!
Of course no one would bring the Russian adoptee’s deaths to the media…adoption
is a loving act
too bad this baby didn’t get the message.
Where or where are all those pro adopters,,and NFCA and Donaldson Institute of Adoption,,Where is Pertman???
Oh, laying low…planning their next study..about mothers..adoptee’s and how adoption is grand…
I wonder where that Bulgarian little boy I knew is by himself, alone in a country that used him for a family that thought they needed a boy, guess I can say at least he got here to U.S.
Wherever he is I hope he is loved, maybe he found his way back home to his family???
But adoption didn’t work for him nor does it work for all those Russian adoptee’s.
My little Russian granddaughter is coming to see me in August…Makes
me so angry to look into her beautiful Russian/American eyes and think of what happened to these poor babies..better life my a$$ adoption is all about $$$$ and those who think they NEED to take babies from
their countries
and families of origin.
Seems the Guatemalian mothers are asking for their babies,, back and it looks like a few will be returned.
HBO is doing a special on China’s Stolen Children..Monday night 7/14 seems those who are or have adopted are starting to get some attention, finally, those who adopt are NOT saints. My son’s adopter threw him in daycare soon after his acquisition and her failed marriage…but who am I to complain she couldn’t have a baby and was oh, so much more worthy of my child.
This is WHAT is wrong with adoption it tears families apart it kills, it hurts, its not in the best interest of a child or its mother..not even those orphans who end up having mothers..who want them but due to poverty are forced into situations that mother’s shouldn’t have to endure.
Why do adopter’s get money when they adopt? And those who adopt foreign get our tax money. I want my money to support moms, babies, and families stay together not used to tear apart a family.
Why must Americans buy babies..why must they get support when they do buy them. Too many wrongs don’t make one right!
One dead baby is too many.
Personally I have had my fill of adopter’s and I am not going to go away. Adoptee’s are speaking out..and it being adopted isn’t all what its cracked up to be..Pertman are you reading this…NFCA..or are you too busy…promoting adoption..business
more likely.
“Seems over at alt. there are complaints that bringing these deaths to the forefront is Boring???”
For goodness sake! ONE person, and that person not even a regular poster, but someone ‘who only does it to annoy because he knows it teases’.
Get real.
“Since 1998, more than 376 children across the country have died after being left in hot vehicles, said Jan Null, an adjunct professor of meteorology at San Francisco State University, who maintains an accounting.”
I wonder how many of them were Russian adoptees?
“Null said in about half the cases of heat-related car deaths he has tracked, the parent or other driver simply forgot about the child. In 30 percent, children got into cars to play and became trapped. In the rest, children were left on purpose while caregivers did other business. This week, an infant died in Tennessee when the baby’s mother went to a bar, Null said.”
Another female adoptress, no doubt.
Dad
“Another female adoptress, no doubt.”
None. It stands to reason, don’t it?
Oh, looks like we have alt…coming over to join, in
Yep…tit for tat no make no bones about it..I do not find this boring and like I said IGNORING is more like what’s happening anybody here anything on this in the news media???
Nope, but you can bet the woman in the bar..was mentioned.
Probably,,a natural mom WE all know what those are like..Kippa I know you are on both sides of the fence but prefer the adopter side or seem to more..often than not..is that Riannon from about adoption bunch which included, Evan’s adopter…what was that name she used to put those pictures of him there like he as a business venture…oh, what a drama queen that one was.
The adoption agency involved in the placement of Chase Harrison (Dmitry Yakovlev) was European Adoption Consultants, Inc.
The Russian Ministery of Education and Science has banned the agency and three other’s just today.
See: http://top.rbc.ru/society/12/07/2008/200013.shtml
The fact that the agency was a European agency makes no difference the baby is still gone..dead.
Oh, and it makes me happy that three adoption agencies are what banned them for how long…
forever like this child is gone forever…
European Adoption Consultants Inc. is an Ohio based agency, specialized in adoption from Eastern European countries. I supplied the information, because all the Russian cases on this blog mention the home study agency and the placement agency when known.
There was a case in the not so distant past where the bio-grandmother or gparents forgot about their grandbaby in the back seat. Was totally out of their ‘routine’, and they forgot!! I don’t know if this is truly just an ‘adopted’ thing.. Lots of kids have been left in cars…even kids born to their own parents. I ain’t saying it’s right, but it happens just as often in natural families as well. I may have no love for Those Who Adopt or the Adoption Industry…but bad things do happen, even to kids who aren’t adopted. This adoptor dad sounds like the case of the bio grandparents…was totally out of their routine and he ‘forgot’? I dunno.. But I will agree with a few of the comments here. If you adopt a kid, want a kid so damn desperately, can’t live life without one, won’t be a complete woman without an adopted kid, what the hell is that kid doing in daycare!!!!??? The poor kid has been thru enough in his/her short life (foreign adoptions)…now it’s daycare? More institutionalizing? The more I read, the more I become confused about the desperate need to have an adopted child in one’s life.
“. . . what the hell is that kid doing in daycare!!!!???”
ITA
It really doesnt matter how you twist it look at it or poop on it its still going to be the same shit.
An adopted child ESPECIALLY an infant will need complete and total bonding and reattachment if they are going to stand any sort of chance of having some sort of a normal…um no wrong word….functioning life….
Putting a infant in daycare does NOT do that.
My heart shudders when I hear of BABIES in daycare. It doesnt do much when I hear of toddlers in there either , but when I hear that someone has put an adopted baby/child in there it crushes in two.
NO ONE should be able to adopt unless they are going to be a full time MOTHER at HOME for the first 5 years of adopting.
But you know what ? I think we are all being WAY TO HARD on the poor dumb dad….
Why are we not holding the adoptive mother responsible ?
Frankly unless she was in hospital for something VERY serious I hold her responsible for this babies death
Where the hell was the ‘mother’ (and I use that term loosely) ?
Niels:
Thanks for pointing out the agency. I JUST received information privately. It was in the Russian story about Chase’s death.
European Adoption Consultants (EAC) has been around since the early 1990s. I’ve got loads on them – but I digress.
I wish to point out EAC also placed ANOTHER murdered Russian adoptee: Logan Higgenbotham in New Hampshire. Logan is mentioned in Marley’s list 🙁
OT: The folken from alt.a – haven’t seen you guys in eons.
E.Case
EAC as a long history of sleaziness. One of its volunteer “consultants” used to post on alt.adoption: PlayRoy.
Last year I attended an adoption conference where they had vendor space. While I was picking up their lit (I collect everything) I overheard a conversation between the paid shill and a pap about Guatemala, which at that time was in danger shutting down. The State Dept. had put out warning to paps to not apply for adoption there. The shill said, “Don’t worry. If you get your paper work in by such-and-such time, we can get you a baby.”
EAC is a NCFA agency but it wasn’t when Logan Higgenbotham was adopted.
“EAC as a long history of sleaziness. One of its volunteer “consultants” used to post on alt.adoption: PlayRoy.”
Before he was drummed out on his arse. Good ‘ol PlayRoy. I doubt you’ll find many endorsements from the regulars on alt.adoption.
Marly, perhaps you’d like to explain exactly what this particular case has to do with adoption? Talk about loose associations. You’re beginning to sound like Jeane Morrisey.
Dad
“There IS indeed a higher bar for adopters, especially ones who are old enough to be grandparent to this child,”
ABSOLUTELY, there is and they had best not forget it! I have two very damaged adult children that I was told were going to be raised by the next thing to Ward and June Cleaver. HAH!
Even the best and most caring of adopters are not any better than we are. But they should be required to exercise more patience, diligience and unselfishness just because of the very nature of separation trauma to the child. I don’t think I have met any, yet, who have attained those goals.
I have seen this horrible tragedy played out a lot, here in FL, because quite a few of these Paradise-cheeseburger-eating idiots down here seem to be so self-involved, busy and “entitled” that they use children as accessories.
ANY adopted child that dies should make a list and Chase belongs on the Russian list. He is an adopted child who died because a presumptive, pseudo-superior, self-entitled, overaged Yuppie-daddy-wannabe was involved in his “routine.”
(I’m a great-grandmother and I am 63…I wouldn’t THINK of adopting an infant or toddler…I wouldn’t think of adopting at all.I had my children, naturally, while I was young enough to do the damn job!)
“Probably,,a natural mom WE all know what those are like..”
We do, do we? I’m sorry you have such a warped view of mothers.
This case has absolutely nada to do with adoption. Unless I missed something, this was an unintential act of gross negligence by an otherwise loving parent. The father seems truly remorseful, to the extent that he became physically ill.
If this child’s father was biological, would it support an argument FOR adoption. Umm, no. That would be too stoopid for words.
You’re not looking much better. 🙂
The only thing regarding this case that’s Forever Dead seems to be the conclusions drawn from it.
Dad
“Quite a few of these Paradise-cheeseburger-eating idiots down here seem to be so self-involved, busy and “entitled” that they use children as accessories.”
I like mine with lettuce and tomato
Heinz 57 and french fried potatoes
Big kosher pickle and a cold draft beer
Well good god almighty which way do i steer
I bet if you searched the male adopter’s vehicle, you would have found CONDIMENTS!
Dad
His name was Dima Yakovlev, not ‘Chase Harrison’.
Pavel–Spasibo bolshoya. If you go to Forever Families Forever Dead you’ll see that I have given his real name. I use the adoptive names because that’s what people look for when searching articles on them.
I’ve read quite a few comments now that say this case has nothing to do with adoption, which I think needs addressing.
I think there are two sides to this, a political and a personal.
On a political level, this has everything to do with adoption. Banning EAC from doing further business in Russia is a political decision made by the Russian Ministry of Education and Science and is entirely related to this case.
On a personal level it is much more difficult to establish a relation between adoption and the neglect taken place. Such is difficult to establish in all abuse/neglect/murder cases.
Only in cases where a family consists of natural and adoptive children and where the adoptive children are treated badly while the natural children don’t, can we establish a relation between adoption and abuse/neglect/murder.
In all other cases such relation is hard and often impossible to establish. That doesn’t mean those case that are not all that cut ‘n dry should be excluded. As much as we can’t assume the neglect would not have taken place had this not been an adopted child, we can’t assume either this is a foolish, yet otherwise loving parent who would have done so had the child been a fruit of his own loins.
rats ass(grrr)
I think Chase Harrison’s name has to be be included on the memorial list, for reasons that seem pretty obvious to me.
I also agree with Neils that we can’t assume that Miles Harrison would have done the same if Chase had been his biological child, though personally I think it’s more than likely.
But the spite and malice expressed here by certain people is pathological.
I guess spewing venom gets their rocks off.
At any rate, it’s quite a spectacle.
Thanks for the show.
“Only in cases where a family consists of natural and adoptive children and where the adoptive children are treated badly while the natural children don’t, can we establish a relation between adoption and abuse/neglect/murder.”
Bunk. We could look no further than the 376 children across the country who have died since 1998 after being left in hot vehicles, for starters.
Interesting. To claim a relationship between adoption and abuse is near impossible to prove, but yet assume there is one anyway. Just whose agenda is being served, again?
Dad
Good God, people. This was an ACCIDENT. This sort of story is horrifying, and what’s worse, it is not that unusual.
It is also horrifying that so many of you pathetic people are raking this father over the coals because he adopted this child. He will pay for this for the rest of his life, whether or not he goes to jail, or, as some of you so ungraciously put it, is locked in a hot car himself.
No wonder why so few people take you idiots seriously.
-just another adult adoptee
Interesting. To claim a relationship between adoption and abuse is near impossible to prove, but yet assume there is one anyway. Just whose agenda is being served, again?
As much as it is near impossible to prove a relation between neglect and adoption it also near impossible to disprove it.
As the maintainer of another not Russia specific archive of abuse/neglect/murder cases, I decided to add this case as well.
My rational behind that was: it is clearly a neglect case and it involves an adoptee, so there is a circumstantial relationship between the two. Adding it leaves open the debate whether there is also a causal relation. Omitting it would be a denial of that possibility.
“As the maintainer of another not Russia specific archive of abuse/neglect/murder cases, I decided to add this case as well.”
Bully for you. I especially like the map, balloons and all.
My rational behind that was: it is clearly a neglect case and it involves an adoptee, so there is a circumstantial relationship between the two.
I see. And what, may I ask, should be the inference drawn when parents abuse/neglect/murder their biological children?
Dad
I see. And what, may I ask, should be the inference drawn when parents abuse/neglect/murder their biological children?
If you want me to acknowledge the fact that people abuse/neglect/murder natural children as well, by all means, they do.
That is why there is a system called CPS, that, if it would work well, should protect children from further abuse, once discovered.
Unfortunately many of the cases I’ve archived are adoptive families that adopted children removed by CPS, where the children were not safer than with their natural families and in many cases even less safe. In many of those cases there were red flags that were ignored and all too often post-placement was not or not properly performed.
The point behind archiving these cases is to demonstrate negligence on the part of placement agencies and to uncover patterns of abuse more prevalent in adoptive families than in natural families.
If you want to know more about the rationale behind the list, I’d suggest you read this post.
What clearly makes my blood boil here is that those that have adopted don’t see any coincidence in the fact that all these kids that have been adopted are DEAD!
Why are so many Russian kids being killed that is not an accident. So don’t try to justify the fact that this happens they are adopted and then die some within months of getting to the U.S.
I am incensed when I see any child abused.
If he forgot the kid in a car all day he surely didn’t think about the child at all. This person was way to old to have a toddler. Thats what happens when the child is an accessory and the person that has the responsibility neglects what is supposed to be important the child not the job.
Regulations on who can adopt, how old, mental health issues, and even a mental health evaluation, heath issues to see if one is forgetful.Part of aging process in older people. Another reason just anyone should not be able to adopt. Because they can.
Not just a social wreckers one stop at the house and its fine.
Those of you here who have come and tried to rationlize this are the pathological ones.
The same group that will tar and feather a woman for getting pregnant and losing her baby to adoption as her fault.
It isn’t and never was, sure she got pregnant but for those of you who don’t know it takes TWO for that to happen! Where is the man’s responsibility?
Where are the “dads”
Trust me when a baby dies due to neglect, whether an adopter or natural it works both ways for me its WRONG!!!
I was over reading some of these stories, about the deaths and some of the women actually admitted they didn’t like the children. Well, well wouldn’t that be proof enough if the child ended up dead. The men that are in some of these stories aren’t innocent. They abuse too.
Pathetic and I still think this man needs to be sat in a hot car for 8 hours.
I guess “just another adoptee” should feel lucky her adopters didn’t get a chance to leave her in a hot car. Wouldn’t be able to make that statement about this dead adoptee would you.
Bottom line is another adoptee is dead, another Russian adoptee, killed by neglect, this time. Not by being thrown against a wall and having spine shattered, not put into hot water, and then left in basement, while “mother” nurse, didn’t do a thing. Not starved, or dropped on its head. One person did this twice to two different kids..wtf.
I think what is most disturbing about the tone of many of these posts is the way that some people will seize on any event to try and bolster some twisted agenda. All kinds of parents biological, adoptive, foster, and step have left kids in hot cars. I don’t condone it, but its not limited to any one group.
Sadly, I don’t think most of the people who’ve raised this issue give a rat’s ass about the kid. Once again, children are being used as pawns to serve some ulterior purpose. Its really no different than the way the NCFA and others have used us adoptees as pawns for years. Whether an adoptee is used to further the cause of adoption or oppose it, we are still being used.
SSDD…
grassy knoll, anyone?
In response to “grassy knoll, anyone?”
Timely suggestion 🙂
Unfortunately many of the cases I’ve archived are adoptive families that adopted children removed by CPS, where the children were not safer than with their natural families and in many cases even less safe.
If you want me to acknowledge that CPS needs to better serve children and their families, you’ll get no argument from me. The bar is never high enough.
Children who have suffered abuse/neglect from their parents only to suffer further abuse by a system that purports to serve them are doubly victimized.
At the same time, a cancer victim who is treated and free of the disease is still at risk from cancer, even if that risk is no greater than someone who has never had the disease.
Perhaps we should archive only those patients whose cancer has returned as some kind of evidence that cancer treatment is abusive. Yeah, that makes sense.
In many of those cases there were red flags that were ignored and all too often post-placement was not or not properly performed.
OK, I’ll bite. What red flags were missed in this case?History of abuse? Nothing in the article ’bout that. Patterns of neglect? Nope. Since you’ve already listed this tragedy along with all the other abused adopted children, please tell me you have something. Anything?
The point behind archiving these cases is to demonstrate negligence on the part of placement agencies and to uncover patterns of abuse more prevalent in adoptive families than in natural families.
More prevalent? Hardly. You can’t make that comparison unless you also archive or study abuse and neglect rates in non-adoptive families. There seems to be only one side to your coin.
Dad
Dad,
I think you are awesome. 🙂
Thanks for speaking up here.
-just another adult adoptee
” You can’t make that comparison unless you also archive or study abuse and neglect rates in non-adoptive families.”
This is true.
“History of abuse? Nothing in the article ’bout that. Patterns of neglect? Nope. “
Well, there is the issue of putting a newly adopted 21 month old child, adopted from Russia only three months before, into day care.
I don’t know about that in itself being abusive or neglectful, though I feel it verges on both, at least in effect, if not in intention.
It demonstrates a profound insensitivity, to say the very least.
I think the agency carries a lot of the responsibility for this tragedy, and It’s some small comfort that it has been closed down.
Dad:
You seem to be convinced I’m doing something terribly wrong by archiving abuse/neglect/murder cases of adoptees and willing to go through all sorts of loops to make your point.
I have kindly explained my reasons for maintaining this archive and the reason the case of Chase Harrison/Dmitry Yakovlev belongs in there.
My words fall on deaf ears with you, so there is no point in continuing this debate.
Have it your way, keep your conviction. Think of yourself you have outsmarted me. I’m not going along with this trolling trail.
(pseudo)Dad, let me ask you a question. If the parent who had accidentally left a child in a hot car to die was a very busy, young, never-married woman who was receiving some government aid in order to keep her child, would you be as generous in your assessment of the nature of this tragedy?
Nope, you and all the rest of your ilk would be nodding your heads and thinking, “that’s what happens when these young girls keep their babies…” It has been assumed, erroneously, that youth and marital status have something to do with child abuse and that is not exactly accurate.
My son was abused by his adopter who thought “discipline” should be physical. He has suffered mightily from it so don’t tell me that adopters don’t abuse any more than natural parents. I would wager that, if an unbiased study was done, it would show just the opposite.
Ciao
Well, there is the issue of putting a newly adopted 21 month old child, adopted from Russia only three months before, into day care. I don’t know about that in itself being abusive or neglectful, though I feel it verges on both, at least in effect, if not in intention.
Agreed. Assuming that this child came from an institutionalized setting, daycare was a bad idea. A very bad idea.
One wonders, if the child had died in daycare, would he be offered up on some list as “evidence” that adoptive parents as a group are neglectful and abusive?
I think the agency carries a lot of the responsibility for this tragedy, and It’s some small comfort that it has been closed down.
I don’t know what requirements Eastern Europe adoption agencies place on PAPs, but it seems to me “no daycare” for children under a certain age (4?) should be near the top of the list.
Dad
“(pseudo)Dad?”
Bitch.
“Bitch.”
Indeed.
Coupled with some seriously erroneous assumptions and generalizations.
(pseudo)Dad, let me ask you a question.
Thank you Robin, for your validation. Coming from a real mother (nothing psuedo about it), I’ll try to remember my place.
If the parent who had accidentally left a child in a hot car to die was a very busy, young, never-married woman who was receiving some government aid in order to keep her child, would you be as generous in your assessment of the nature of this tragedy?
Would you be as harsh? Would you brand her a murderer and throw her up on some pro-adoption list next to Susan Smith?
My son was abused by his adopter who thought “discipline” should be physical. He has suffered mightily from it so don’t tell me that adopters don’t abuse any more than natural parents.
Adopters (that’s me, a non-parent) as a group don’t abuse any more than natural (that’s you) parents. There, I said it.
Project much? Your circumstances are just that, yours. They are not universal, though it seems they have clouded your objectivity.
My kids were also neglected and abused by their parent(s), unspeakable neglect and abuse to a level far beyond physical discipline. That’s about all you’ll get from me. I guess we’re at an impasse.
Dad
The homestudy/post placement services in this case were the responsibility of Adoption Home Studies and Placement Services, Inc. dba Adoption Connections, from Falls Church, Virginia. This agency supposedly also works as local office of World Child International in Virginia.
Source: http://www.gazeta.ru/social/2008/07/12/2780989.shtml
Here we go with the tit for tat.
I thought we were speaking on THIS case, not Susan Smith, who I will add is a nut case. She doesn’t deserve to be alive! There so I am not discriminating against those who adopt.
I don’t think this adoption and way to many other adoptions, and foster care givers are looked at with a fine tooth comb before a child is put into a home. Its all about money and evidently these people had enough to adopt a toddler at an advanced age. I am 59 years old and would NEVER feel like I could or should take on a toddler at my age. Whats the chances of these people that adopt at this age will even be alive to care for this child when he is a teen. Oh, I know the answer you’ll give, but advanced age is more than likely going to affect this child by the time he is a teen. Who will be there then?
Guess thats the chance one takes but to me the advanced age of an adopter is taking another chance with this kids future of instability.
We all know adoption is a crap shoot, and obviously the money won out here. The advanced age is just another factor this child will deal with in the future. Only he doesn’t have a future!
Now, my tit for tat..and how my personal story just like yours dad in relevent in adoption, just like Robin’s and I know her son has suffered from being adopted. My son suffers from the abuse of being given to an old person the person that my son was given to was 49 and he was a newborn! Guess in those days hair color was more important than age. I heard that in California if the adopter’s age didn’t total 100 years old together they qualified. The
people who adopted my son totaled 78 bingo lucky there was a big age difference in the female and male. The age difference was a red flag but the wrecker didn’t think anything about that factor. The male ended up completely abandoning my son especially when his female adoptress married her boss who I might add was much older,,again like her dad’s age. This new person in my son’s life ended up emotionally abusing him while the female party allowed this to happen. It has affected my son, and I am projecting this into my thoughts, just as you have dad in your evaluation of your circumstances of the kids you adopted.
I was judged harshly, as being single, well guess what within months of being adopted my son was with a single mom!
To me all of this was crap, and part of the adoption machine that rolled over me to put my son in a better home..what home?
Oh, yeah the temporary two parent home!
I saw red flags, wrecker didn’t just like the age element is a red flag for this dead child. But again money is more important in adoption and there lies the problem. Just because one is married and has a little money doesn’t mean their going to be a better parent. Age is just the added element. I can forget to pay a bill, or forget to get gas but I can’t forget a baby in a car! Not any baby.
You seem to be convinced I’m doing something terribly wrong by archiving abuse/neglect/murder cases of adopteest
Here’s a hint. It reminds me of those adoptee = serial killer lists that are commonly linked to anti-adoption sites. Not a big fan.
and willing to go through all sorts of loops to make your point.
One man’s loopiness is another man’s logic.
I have kindly explained my reasons for maintaining this archive and the reason the case of Chase Harrison/Dmitry Yakovlev belongs in there.
Yes, under the “Special Feature” heading entitled “Children Abused Or Killed By Their Adoptive Parents.” Evidently, a single tragic act of unintentional neglect qualifies one as a murderer and/or abuser.
Tell me, do you apply the same standard to biological parents? Had Chase been a biological child, would his accidental death been labelled murder or abuse? Would you support his inclusion on a pro-adoption list as further evidence that bio parents as a group are more likely to abuse and neglect their children?
My words fall on deaf ears with you,
As do mine with you.
I spent some time looking over your site, there’s some really good stuff there.
Have it your way, keep your conviction. Think of yourself you have outsmarted me. I’m not going along with this trolling trail.
Alrighty then.
Dad
Ah, but being a “Bitch” is a good thing when you are up against an institutional mythology that treats mothers as disposable and children as merchandise. I could direct you and Kippa and others to some very pertinent studies that belie the term “generalizations,” but you only want to see what will justify your act of adoption. When it comes to the sorry attitudes of adopters towards natural mothers, you can bet your pompous arse that I am a Bitch on Wheels.
I thought we were speaking on THIS case, not Susan Smith, who I will add is a nut case. She doesn’t deserve to be alive!
Sorry, I haven’t been very clear.
Yes, I am speaking of THIS case – a single tragic act of unintentional gross neglect. Evidently, this now qualifies Chase as just another “abused” and/or “murdered” adoptee.
Think about it.
Dad
And to echo another commenter, here, what in the Hell was this baby, adopted and taken from his culture and, supposedly, “very wanted” doing in freaking DAYCARE??
“I could direct you and Kippa and others to some very pertinent studies that belie the term “generalizations,” “
Your assumption that I don’t know from personal experience about prejudice against unmarried mothers, or that I’m unfamiliar with the studies you mention, is only further evidence of how much you you generalize.
“but you only want to see what will justify your act of adoption.”
So you think my son should have been left in the hospital indefinitely, do you? Nice.
“When it comes to the sorry attitudes of adopters towards natural mothers, you can bet your pompous arse that I am a Bitch on Wheels.”
Looks like you’ve lost at least one of those wheels.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ah, but being a “Bitch” is a good thing when you are up against an institutional mythology that treats mothers as disposable and children as merchandise.
So, you’re answer is to advance another institutional myth that adoptive parents as a group are greedy abusers and murderers.
You’re no better than the pro-adoption loonatics who think adoption is the best and only option when faced with an unwanted pregnancy.
Congrats – you’re in great company!
Dad
“Tell me, do you apply the same standard to biological parents? Had Chase been a biological child, would his accidental death been labelled murder or abuse? Would you support his inclusion on a pro-adoption list as further evidence that bio parents as a group are more likely to abuse and neglect their children?”
Actually I would include this case as neglect and abuse of any child regardless of parental status. What else would you call it?
There are way too many cases of “forgetful” parents who let their kids roast to death. It’s sort of the new hospitalization. And prosecutors usually (unless the neglectful parent is poor and/or single) lets it ride. The parent has suffered enough blah blah blah.
This may well be a horrible accident, but nonetheless it’s a case of neglect. It’s not uncommon to see parents charged with neglect who leave their kid in the car for 5 minutes while they go into the convenience store. Miles Harrison is affluent. He’ll walk.
Dima’s adoption was not yet finalized. He was a Russian citizen who died of neglect (accidental or not) at the hands of a person who was deemed “responsible” enough to adopt someone else’s child by the Russian and US governments and a prominent corrupt adoption agency.
No one has a right to adopt. The bar IS higher for those who want to adopt.
Well, Darn, Dad…who was it talking about “generalizations? And you never answered the question about the young, single mother leaving her child in a hot car…instead, we took a side trip to Susan Smith land. Too biased to answer the question? And as for my attitude or whatever, I am proudly for total natural family preservation and, when that is not possible, legal guardianships with no pretenses to parenthood as in adoption. Now here are some things to chew on, if you dare.
A-it is becoming more evident that the children making up the largest percentage of psychiatric patients, both in-house care and out, are adopted kids and teens. In my son’s prison AA group, out of 21 men, 14 were adopted. Disproportionate, huh? The children I raised have no such problems, are responsible and emotionally sound. The children that were taken from me for adoption are both pretty darn messed up.
B-recent studies (published) have shown that teen moms are usually inspired by their motherhood to get ahead and that their status doesn’t necessarily make them future abusers or neglecters. I, personally, know quite a few single, young moms and they have proven to be exemplary parents.
C-the bulk of abuse has been the province of non-genetically related caregivers. Now that does include step-parents and boy and girlfriends of the custodial parent, but it makes you think.
D-When there is something to fight back with against the “crackwhore” and “abuser, dumpster” moms, and it is being weighed as judgment of those who adopt, it doesn’t feel very good, does it? So, imagine how it feels to have yourself and millions of other good women judged and categorized by a minority…the lowest, common denominator.
One thing we have decided in our fight for justice for the BSE mothers and natural family preservation is that we are not going to get any real understanding or help from adopters. That is why we, who have any sense, stay away from your enclaves.
Hey improper adoptee,
You are wrong here…. not an adopter, and adoptEE. Read a whole comment before you retaliate, ok?
-just another adult adoptee
Good God, people. This was an ACCIDENT. This sort of story is horrifying, and what’s worse, it is not that unusual.
It is also horrifying that so many of you pathetic people are raking this father over the coals because he adopted this child. He will pay for this for the rest of his life, whether or not he goes to jail, or, as some of you so ungraciously put it, is locked in a hot car himself.
No wonder why so few people take you idiots seriously.
Oh shad up…with you damn adoptors going around BRAGGING THAT YOU WOULD NEVER LET HARM COME TO ANY CHILD YOU ADOPT AND ONLY REAL PARENTS WOULD, this horrific tragedy is now in your face, discrediting your warped attitudes and you can’t handle it. Boo, Hoo. Well take it from an adoptee that was abused ruthlessly by her mommie dearest, I AM SICK TO HELL OF THIS WE ARE BETTER THAN YOU ARE immature bullshit, that is spewed everyday in my face, that I know is NOT true. I LIVED that the fact that it is NOT true, and that lies is also a form of cement that keeps our records sealed-
Um, Dork, I mean Dad-take your damn abusive insults to people who are hurt by systems that YOU support and shove them up your spoiled brat, overly catered too, adoptive God ass. I am SOOOO sick of you adoptive parents.
Also, everyone (on our side, and if you Pro Adoption people go, be forewarned I will dedicate HOURS to counteracting all the pond scum you will spew on that forum and I will not quit until I have the last word) go to Slate please and reply to the latest Dear Prudie letter-( I just posted a quick blog about this with a link). You’ll see why.
YES, Marley!
Oh shad up…with you damn adoptors going around BRAGGING THAT YOU WOULD NEVER LET HARM COME TO ANY CHILD YOU ADOPT AND ONLY REAL PARENTS WOULD.
Gee, I must have missed this post. If any more straw men show up, you could form a regiment.
Don’t worry, I have no interest in visiting your site under threat of who can be the biggest bitch and mercilessly shout down opposing viewpoints. You win, hands down.
Dad
“He was a Russian citizen who died of neglect (accidental or not) at the hands of a person who was deemed “responsible” enough to adopt someone else’s child by the Russian and US governments and a prominent corrupt adoption agency. “
Exactly. That’s why I think you are right to include his name among the others.
Dad said: “Adopters (that’s me, a non-parent) as a group don’t abuse any more than natural (that’s you) parents. There, I said it.”
Statistically it seems that this is not true, Dad. “”Postadoption depression” is becoming more widely recognized and may be more common than postpartum depression.” Journal:Child Maltreatment Volume:12 Issue:4 Dated:November 2007 Pages:378 to 380
Adoption has also been shown to be a risk factor for increased likelihood of suicide in adolescents and mental disorders…”In comparison to individuals raised by both biological parents, adoption was strongly associated with a history of childhood conduct disorder, antisocial personality and drug abuse or dependence. Adoption may thus be a risk factor for these mental disorders.” Sullivan PF, Wells JE, Bushnell JA.
University Department of Psychological Medicine, Christchurch School of Medicine, New Zealand.
These links from a quick google search.
All of these issues increase the likelihood of abuse. There is a mountain of evidence that suggests that adoption isn’t the panacea that it is purported to be.
Again, I say that adopters, by the fact that they have elected themselves more worthy than others to raise a child must be held to a higher account, and sadly, Dad, they are not.
If this comes up more than one time, I apologize. I think the original post got lost.
BTW, Improper Adoptee, Your picture is Jess Del Balzo’s daughter at the courthouse in Ohio during the hearing Stephanie Bennett had about a year ago regarding the legality of the means used to obtain her surrender. There is a case for you!!!!
So when are we going to start throwing out the startling rates of abuse by the boyfriends of single mothers?
Probably won’t fit the agenda here, will it?
And, great grandbitch…I work with a lot of teenagers who are pregant at 13, 14, and 15. Guess what? Thier mommies had them at 13, 14, and 15. It is cyclical. And, pretty much none of these moms are good ones, as is evidenced by the fact that they are in and out of foster care.
Well, Darn, Dad…who was it talking about “generalizations? And you never answered the question about the young, single mother leaving her child in a hot car…
If such a young mother had no history or pattern of abusing or neglecting her child, and there were no other contributing circumstances like mental illness and/or drug addictions, then no, I would not include her on a list of murdering abusive bioparents as evidence that biological parents abuse their children.
How’s that for a run-on sentence. 🙂
Now, perhaps you’d like to answer mine. If this were not an adoptive parent, would you be as harsh? Would you brand him a murderer and throw her up on some pro-adoption list next to Susan Smith?
instead, we took a side trip to Susan Smith land
Susan Smith was an absurd example to make the point that this these two events are hugely different. I’m sorry you interpreted it as a slam against natural mothers, which it clearly wasn’t.
And as for my attitude or whatever, I am proudly for total natural family preservation and, when that is not possible, legal guardianships with no pretenses to parenthood as in adoption.
Yes, “A Biological Family or None At All.” I passed on the bumper sticker.
Now here are some things to chew on, if you dare.
A-it is becoming more evident that the children making up the largest percentage of psychiatric patients, both in-house care and out, are adopted kids and teens. In my son’s prison AA group, out of 21 men, 14 were adopted. Disproportionate, huh.
Disproprotionate, indeed. But to claim adoption as the primary causal factor, you would have to control for pre-adoption neglect and/or abuse, genetically inherited mental illnesses, and a whole host of other socio-economic factors in the muck.
Lemme guess, how many of those inmates were adopted at birth? If adoption is the primary causal factor, why do adopted foster children fare much better than those who age out of the system unadopted?
And perhaps one of the reasons adoptees are over represented in therapy is because a significant percentage of them are former foster children and international adoptees, adoptees who have suffered abuse and/or neglect pre-adoption.
Also, the children from functional families see a dentist far more than those who are not. Does this mean children with dysfunctional parents are born with better teeth? I don’t think so.
But even under ideal adoption circumstances I do not doubt children are slightly over represented in therapy. Losing your mother is trauma in and of itself, and every infant adoption begins with separation trauma.
The children I raised have no such problems, are responsible and emotionally sound. The children that were taken from me for adoption are both pretty darn messed up.
I’m really sorry about that. 🙁
B-recent studies (published) have shown that teen moms are usually inspired by their motherhood to get ahead and that their status doesn’t necessarily make them future abusers or neglecters. I, personally, know quite a few single, young moms and they have proven to be exemplary parents.
So have I, and nowhere do I claim that single young moms are destined to abuse/neglect their children. But I have yet to read a study that claims single teenage motherhood is a complete non-issue as an indicator of future abuse and/or neglect. If you’ve got such a peer reviewed study, post the link. I would like to read it.
Ironically, some of the comments here point to the adopter’s advanced age as an indicator, yet completely dismiss the age of the biological mother as relevant.
When there is something to fight back with against the “crackwhore” and “abuser, dumpster” moms, and it is being weighed as judgment of those who adopt, it doesn’t feel very good, does it? So, imagine how it feels to have yourself and millions of other good women judged and categorized by a minority…the lowest, common denominator.
It sucks, big time.
How does it feel to mete out the same drivel that was once leveled at you? I guess there’s some satisfaction in it.
One thing we have decided in our fight for justice for the BSE mothers and natural family preservation is that we are not going to get any real understanding or help from adopters.
If you want help and understanding from adopters, might I suggest you offer some of your own. Branding them abusive and neglectful as a group is not my idea of an olive branch. Thank you, may I have another? Thwack.
I have a lot of empathy for BSE first moms. Thank god infant adoption rates are but a tiny fraction of what they were in the 50’s and 60’s. Today’s adoptions are very different. If trends persist, domestic infant adoption will be the exception within the decade, rather than the norm amongst adopted children.
As it should be, IMO.
Maybe, Dad, the reason we can’t work with adopters is because they cannot see the forest for their own, personal trees. We can’t compromise and say that something we think is inherently wrong is OK in “some situations.” Call me whatever you want, but don’t mininterpret what I said. I didn’t say that, sometimes, a child cannot be raised by their mother or a close relative. I said that adopting these children was NOT the answer.
We know that there are situations where natural families either cannot or will not take in a child. That is where we would like to see legal guardianship become the norm. That way, there are no adopted square pegs trying to fit into round holes, names remain as they were given at birth and information is freely given. Such a situation would be ALL about what is best for the child and not about a childless person wanting to pretend to be a parent or someone wanting to play saint/hero.
And to dismiss the fact that some mothers who are truly unfit at the time the babies are born will stay that way, will never be rehabilitated or healed of their problems is to give up hope for humanity to survive. I’ve seen some come back from the pits of drug addiction and other problems to become good mothers and wives and hard workers.
I have also seen too many cases of CPS taking children from a home with very little good reason, adopting out the desirable infants and toddlers and returning the older children to their grieving parents.
There is a trend among this society to think that parenthood should only be for the financially secure and well-educated. If that were so, I would have been put up for adoption. If adoption is so darn wonderful, why isn’t every family in the country donating one of their natural children to the adoption industry?
Robin,
I think YOU are awesome:)))
Thanks for speaking up here for those adoptee’s that can’t and those that won’t!
:)))
Bitch nothing wrong with that word especially when a woman is speaking out. Its those women who use it against other women and how they use it is what I question.
Gale
Maybe, Dad, the reason we can’t work with adopters is because they cannot see the forest for their own, personal trees.
We all have our own “personal trees” to see past, most of them shaped by our own experiences. We all bring our own biases, baggage, and history. What makes you think you’re exempt?
For someone so emotionally and negatively affected by adoption, I admire your complete and total objectivity. It’s almost superhuman.
Fanaticism either for or against adoption in all circumstances smacks of personal bias, not objectivity.
We can’t compromise and say that something we think is inherently wrong is OK in “some situations.”
I disagree. I don’t think adoption is inherently wrong. I think it’s OK in some situations, perhaps even preferable. (gasp)
Call me whatever you want, but don’t mininterpret what I said. I didn’t say that, sometimes, a child cannot be raised by their mother or a close relative. I said that adopting these children was NOT the answer.
Yes, permanent guardianship. I heard you – a conversation for another time. I don’t have the stamina I once had for much more of this discussion. It must be my advanced age.
We know that there are situations where natural families either cannot or will not take in a child. That is where we would like to see legal guardianship become the norm.
Norm? Why not the rule, since you’re anti-adoption position cannot be compromised?
That way, there are no adopted square pegs trying to fit into round holes,
Or delusional adoptive parents playing mommy and daddy, correct?
names remain as they were given at birth and information is freely given.
My teenage daughter identifies herself by her hyphenated birth-adoptive family name. Fine by me.
My son has no “legal guardian” any more. He’s out of school and over 18, although he still chooses to live at home with our blessing. He still has a father.
Such a situation would be ALL about what is best for the child and not about a childless person wanting to pretend to be a parent or someone wanting to play saint/hero.
I’ll continue to “pretend” to act as my children’s father as long as they will have me, no matter what you call me.
And to dismiss the fact that some mothers who are truly unfit at the time the babies are born will stay that way, will never be rehabilitated or healed of their problems is to give up hope for humanity to survive.
I dismissed no such thing, thank you very much.
I’ve seen some come back from the pits of drug addiction and other problems to become good mothers and wives and hard workers.
Of course they can… and do. Most foster children are reunified with their natural moms. Only 20% of foster children are put up for adoption.
I have also seen too many cases of CPS taking children from a home with very little good reason, adopting out the desirable infants and toddlers and returning the older children to their grieving parents.
Infant adoption (which a foster child is adopted is something close to 7 years old.
I’ll have to research my data again. I’m a bit out of practice.
There is a trend among this society to think that parenthood should only be for the financially secure and well-educated.
While at the same time, the young, poor and less educated single mother is actually less likely to relinquish her newborn for adoption than her older, affluent, more educated counterpart. Ironic, isn’t it?
Dad
Asking us to say that adoption is OK under “some circumstances” and to put a stamp of approval on it is the same as asking us to say that it wasn’t wrong for us to lose our children…that it was our fault….that coercion and force and twisting of the truth never happened. That would be lying. It was wrong and that is a fact. This is why we can’t work with adopters. You ask for too much and are willing to give so little. Barring the worst of circumstances, a child needs their natural family.
“Adoption REFORM’ is a catch-phrase used by the agencies and their customers to mean finding ways to make adoption easier for those who want to adopt. I’ll be damned if I am going to participate in that kind of “movement.” I’ve already been screwed, Thank You.
There is a group of parents who have had their children siezed by CPS for the flimsiest and most specious of reasons and quite a few of them have had their older children returned but have lost their babies and toddlers to adoption. THAT IS A FACT and they are organized and angry.
And, if your assessment of the situation is true, then why do we keep hearing the lamenting over all the older and special needs children languishing in foster care? The reason for that is because adopters want those womb-fresh babies.
This nation has been brainwashed about adoption. If it is the more affluent mothers surrendering their infants, then it is because the adoption industry has made it look like a win-win situation. And you would be amazed at how many of these middle and upper-class moms show up in private natural mothers’ support groups in full grief after the scales have fallen from their eyes.
Direct quote after one of these young ladies was blocked out of her “guaranteed open adoption.” “God help me. What have I done?” She drank the Kool Aid and then realized what she had done too late to take it back.
The irony is that it seems that belief in the importance of family and justice seems to be only found in those who have the least amount of money, power and political acumen.
Oh, and I do know several college-student moms, from affluent families, who didn’t buy the propaganda. That’s anecdotal evidence, I admit, but true. Oh, and if this info comes from an NCFA or EBDIA or Guttmacher Institute study, then it’s skewed, for sure.
Great Grandbitch wrote:
One thing we have decided in our fight for justice for the BSE mother and natural family preservation is that we are not going to get any real understanding or help from adopters. That is why we who have any sense stay away from enclaves.
Its also why are you irrelevant, marginalized and don’t stand one hoot in hell of accomplishing anything in terms of legislative reform of adoption practices. All the average legislator would have to do is listen to you and you looney-tune buddies from Origins and they’d walk away shaking the dust from their feet.
Don’t assume everyone who opposes you is an adopter. There are some adoptees here who don’t buy the Origins Line. Yeah, yeah, I know you were all coerced and the natural family couldn’t ever be the problem right?
This discussion about this man who made a terrible mistake and left his child in a car to die has really opened my eyes. There are some really sick, sorry people here. I hope you’ll stay under a rock and not make a spectacle of yourself when the rest of us try to lobby for open records.
Some of the jokes in this movement amaze me.
What I cannot understand is why no one has claimed that he baked his baby out of love and selflessness, this adopto-land after all aka crazytown.
Yes, of course this has to do with adoption because had his loving baby-baking adoptive father not adopted him, this child would more than likely still be alive.
from Dad
“Here’s a hint. It reminds me of those adoptee = serial killer lists that are commonly linked to anti-adoption sites. Not a big fan.”
So should we ignore the correlation and pretend everything is fine?
Maybe don’t want to think of your adoptees as having to have that kind of stigma placed upon them, the problem is as adoptees, they will face stigma every day, it is a part of their lives, whether or not you can accept that.
In real life I don’t tell anyone I am adopted, I would advise your kids to do the same, esp. at work, people do look down on adoptees and pity them. I know because people mistake me for a real kid and tell me.
.
From Dad:
“One man’s loopiness is another man’s logic.”
No, actually it doesn’t work that way, logic doesn’t work that way, it is a big topic, and I can’t explain they structure of logic in the comments section but here is a good link to get started.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic
Yes, this loving baby-baker who adopted killed this child, I am not sure as to why all adoptive parents seem to be reacting as if the act of adoption makes them baby-bakers, here is an example of logic for you dad,
baby baker is an adoptive parent, does not equal all adoptive parents are baby bakers.
I believe that adoptees are abused at a higher rate than non-adoptees, biology offers a certain amount of protection, certainly biology does not offer enough protection to prevent child abuse, but lions for example will eat the young of other male lions when they move in on a pride, the human animal has some elements of this as well.
Some of the more horrifying memories of my own childhood could not have happened if I was not adopted, for example, when I was 12 and whining at my mom about wanting something, she turned to me and said, “don’t you think I want something to? don’t you think I want my own child?”
She couldn’t have said that to me if I wasn’t adopted, it wouldn’t have frightened me if I wasn’t adopted.
People get so offended if someone from their place in the “triad” is held accountable for anything, I can understand I once defended Nicole Ritchie for driving the wrong way on the freeway, now that is funny becuase driving the wrong way on the freeway because you are blind drunk is so indefensible.
So is baking your baby.
It is important and valid to recognize these stories as part of the story of adoption, it is important and valuable to investigate what adoption really is, how it effects the children, even if it hurts us to look at.
I am sorry that people are taking these things so personally and not thinking about the child, not everyone but enough people, I suppose it is all done out ofthe depths of your loving, selfless hearts though with my best interest in mind.
I can’t even begin to tell you how grateful I am.
lollers
“Adoption REFORM’ is a catch-phrase used by the agencies and their customers to mean finding ways to make adoption easier for those who want to adopt. I’ll be damned if I am going to participate in that kind of “movement.” I’ve already been screwed, Thank You. “
So, what you’re really saying is that because YOU were screwed, children in the future don’t deserve to have better adoption practices and laws which better serve THEM in the long run. Um’K.
Adoption reform is not about mothers only. Adoption reform has always been and will continue to be about serving the children’s needs so that mothers will have the best chance to make life easier for their children. Yes, ideally every child would be raised by their mothers, and I do agree that guardianship is a viable option, but what about the parents who want NO part of parenting? Guardianship is not the best option for them. What about the mother or father, who absolutely do not want to or who are not capable of parenting? Guardianshp is not always going to be the best way to go, Robin. That is where adoption is better for kids. Parents should not be forced to parent, nor should children be put in guardianships if parents are pressured int Open adoption with statute in every state, eliminating 24 hour sign overs, informed consent with independent council, and good practices in general by ethical, licensed, and reputable agencies, I can promise will not “screw you around”, Robin.
The problem with you, Robin, is that you project your crap all over the place, and that is why mothers such as myself, don’t join the “we blame adoptors” band wagon.
It’s futile, pathological, and self-serving. Yes, there are some pretty stinky adoptive parents, but there are also some pretty stinky biological parents. Take a hard look at the number of children who are in foster care, and left to age out of the system.
Getting back to the “another Russian adoptee dies” story now. It is pathetic the way you take this tragedy to make it all about how “badly you got screwed”, Robin.
PATHETIC.
Sorry I forgot to sign my last post.
Fwiw.
Kathy Underhill
Meagan787
“”I hope you’ll stay under a rock and not make a spectacle of yourself when the rest of us try to lobby for open records.””
The leggies are always listening when an adoptee speaks…and throwing this around.. “”Its also why you are irrelevant, marginalized “” to a mother who was forced to surrender…will only make it that much harder for the adopted population to get their records opened. The leggies will use words such as yours against the adopted, with the purported purpose of ‘protecting’ the natural mother from suspect adoptees. So I sincerely hope that while you are screaming for open records…you don’t talk about natural mothers being ‘irrevelant’. The leggies don’t think we are ‘irrevelant’, rather they very much think us ‘revelant’ in their decades long cause to keep sealed records closed! As does the NCFA and their henchman.. the agencies, adoption lawyers, etc. Or haven’t you noticed how very concerned they are for us poor ole burfmuggles and our ‘privacy’? And this is one ole burfmuggle that ain’t ‘irrevelant and marginalized’….Thank you very much!! I may have been ‘irrevelant and marginalized’ back in 1964, but not in the year 2008!
And no, I do not belong to OUSA..I have no use for the current regime. Even though this convo is completely off topic..still what I am witnessing once again…if a mother, any natural mother has thoughts of her own and has the ovaries to speak her mind…there will always be at least one adoptee or adoptor, who will try and knock her back into that place, where so many believe she should have stayed…irrelevant, marginalized and under a rock. This is one of the major reasons I stopped giving my full support for open records..afterall mothers are ‘irrevelant’! You don’t spit in someone’s face, tell them to crawl back under a rock and then ask them to help you.
I wish you all the luck in the world lobbying for open records. I truly do hope it happens for the adopted population.
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I am going to add that ah, lol, 48
I am going to add that ah, lol, *
48-typo*47
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from Dad
“Here’s a hint. It reminds me of those adoptee = serial killer lists that are commonly linked to anti-adoption sites. Not a big fan.”
So should we ignore the correlation and pretend everything is fine?
Evidently, you haven’t spent much time reading adoptee = serial killer lists. Try Googling Carangelo, GhostDancer, perhaps even DeBalzo.
First, we find serial killers then apply ridiculous associations in an attempt to label them adopted.
Had Barack Obama been a serial killer instead of a US Senator, presto chango, he’d be just another killer adoptee.
A significant percentage (most?) suffered extreme neglect and/or abuse before they were adopted.
Many were never adopted at all, unless being cared for by extended family sometime during childhood qualifies. If you’re a serial killer, ta da, you’re an adoptee.
Still more serial killers suffered from genetically inherited mental illnesses, but that’s eagerly dismissed as irrelevant in the pursuit of pathologizing adoptees.
Maybe don’t want to think of your adoptees as having to have that kind of stigma placed upon them,
You’re right. Who would want their children eagerly associated with serial killing sociopaths?
The overwhelming majority of serial killers are male, many of whom were raised by single mothers. You have a son, don’t you? Maybe someone should start a list.
the problem is as adoptees, they will face stigma every day, it is a part of their lives,
And these adoptee = serial killer lists are part of the problem.
Why are you OK with this kind of tripe, while at the same time denouncing lists of successful or famous adoptees?
whether or not you can accept that.
I’m willing to accept that the loss of biological family is significant trauma, whether precipitated by adoption or not.
I do not accept that adoption in and of itself is more traumatic than physical/sexual abuse or severe neglect by a biological parent (or an extended family member).
Perhaps you do, I don’t know.
Dad
There is a group of parents who have had their children siezed by CPS for the flimsiest and most specious of reasons and quite a few of them have had their older children returned but have lost their babies and toddlers to adoption. THAT IS A FACT and they are organized and angry.
As well they should be. There are also huge numbers of older foster children now in permanent care who were repeatedly abused and/or neglected despite several failed attempts at reunification.
They’re angry too, just not organized.
And, if your assessment of the situation is true, then why do we keep hearing the lamenting over all the older and special needs children languishing in foster care?
Perhaps because not enough parents step forward to make a difference.
Or maybe they’re just afraid of taking in a serial killer.
You may lay this squarely at the feet of infant adopters. I don’t happen to stop there.
It doesn’t much matter to a foster kid passed over for adoption (or guardianship) because an infant became available. He’ll age out the system just as fast if you ignore him as well.
The reason for that is because adopters want those womb-fresh babies.
Sadly, too often this is true.
But it’s still fact that less than 2% of children adopted from foster care are under the age of 12 months. This isn’t “my assessment” – I can quite easily back it up with reliable data.
Dad
A few years ago, some demented souls began trying to argue that adoption was flawed on the basis that adopted children are more likely to become criminals, be subjected to psychological disorders, etc. The cure, according to these paragons of wisdom, is to simply leave children in their family of origin.
There are any number of flaws in this hypothesis. Perhaps, the major flaw is the efforts of these natural family proponents is to compare numbers with the average. The average in most countries is still a two-parent household. Children who aren’t adopted are ordinarily not raised in a two parent household, but in a household with a single parent. There is a much more impressive set of numbers which says that being raised in a single parent household leaves a child more susceptible from everything from depression, suicide, a criminal record, getting divorced, to dropping out of school. And, that is in a household where there is no abuse or neglect going on. Of course, all this gets ignored and the facts get twisted to further some agenda by groups like Origins.
Believe me, as an adoptee, I understand adoption is not perfect by a longshot. The solution though is not to eliminate adoption and replace it with some dumb, unworkable idea like guardianships. Its to reduce the need for it and educate the people involved when it does occur.
A special note to all the “bitches” replying here. You aint helping your cause any. I always knew some opposed adoption, but I’m always amazed at how nasty and hateful some of you get to try and make a point. Few of us in adoptionland take you seriously. Those outside of adoptionland would turn this crap right off.
So what do you do with people who do not want to parent under any circumstance? Are they forced to keep it so the kid won’t feel bad?
Marley,
Those who “don’t” want to parent should be taking bcontrol!!! And if that isn’t what they want to do they should make sure they don’t parent by get vasectomies, or tubal ligs thats the way to prevent this from happening.
And our government should make sure that pharmacies, will and do sell birth control and NOT leave it up to some religious person whether he can dispense birth control according to HIS convictions!I might add this is usually a man doing this. Also, those who want bcontrol and can’t afford it should be offered it free.
the days of young people who ARE having sex being left unprotected, should be over these young adults should be have all available help to keep pregnancy from happening. The days of reaping off young women for the babies they produce should be gone here and overseas.
Oh, and while I am mentioning b control those who have insurance and the insurance won’t pay for it why are they paying or Viagra and ignoring the importantance of b control???
hmm poiticians, again interferring with…the adoption industry..trying to make sure there is enough infants for harvest. While the old guys on the second or third wives can still have some pleasure.
gale
Obama is adopted?
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Obama,
Is was raised by a single mom. He knows who his father is and has visited his country father is Kenyan.
Also Obama’s mother had support and look how well she did raising her son!
gale
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*comprise
*compromise-sorry about all my psace hogging typos
adoptee said,
A special note to all the “bitches” replying here. You aint helping your cause any.
And you are not even brave enough to post your name. Seems you want to call WE mother’s here bitches, and then don’t want us for some reason to know WHO you are?
I really don’t care what you call me as long as its not my favorite and adopters favorite too b mommy..I gave birth and am mother to my son. If I hadn’t given birth he wouldn’t have even been here. A mother gives birth to her baby. Look it up in dictionary. NO man and altered records can change the facts. I have both b certs, the amended one and the real one guess what the mother listed on it is ME. NO surprise I gave birth…and the second amended b cert has a stranger giving birth at same hospital at the same moment, the same day to the same person…she is listed as mom on that ugly black faux document. Lies,,,created by men who are protecting an industry while probably acquiring a new baby for their new wives since the can’t seem to have them on their own.
those of us in Adoptionland..lol
kind of like Neverland where those who are involved never get to know where there their family is.
Gale
ps its your business if you want to live with the lies, I prefer the truth myself its just better for all including adoptee’s thats why they want open records..
Marley,
What do We do with those who want to adopt and just because they can shouldn’t?
ANYONE can pass a home study and proof of that is adoptee’s are being killed.
Gale
“I do not accept that adoption in and of itself is more traumatic than physical/sexual abuse or severe neglect…”
Well if you are saying that adoption is as traumatic as sexual abuse(and it is), then why do you defend it?
Is English your first language?
Dad
Marley Asked: So what do you do with people who do not want to parent under any circumstance? Are they forced to keep it so the kid won’t feel bad?
Marley,
One would assume that if a woman is dead certain that she has no desire, EVER to parent that she would take steps to insure that is taken care of. Of course, in this country with Abstinence Only, maybe there are some women who don’t really know how that works, but I doubt it.
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“Is English your first language?
Dad”
Fuck you.
Congrats! That’s much better. 🙂
Dad
from Dad:
Evidently, you haven’t spent much time reading adoptee = serial killer lists.
Joy: Your are right in your assesment, I don’t, I don’t find them anything but a mild curiosity, I don’t feel like they have anything to do with me personally, or that many people even know or care about these lists. In real life people tend to think I am a “nice lady” the incidence of a serial killer is so rare, I don’t think it has much impact on any group as a whole, or else we would be suspicious of all white males.
Dad:
Maybe don’t want to think of your adoptees as having to have that kind of stigma placed upon them,
You’re right. Who would want their children eagerly associated with serial killing sociopaths?
Joy: In my experience the stigma they face will be of a much more banal source.
Dad:
The overwhelming majority of serial killers are male, many of whom were raised by single mothers. You have a son, don’t you? Maybe someone should start a list.
Joy: Now you are just being silly.
DAd:
And these adoptee = serial killer lists are part of the problem.
Why are you OK with this kind of tripe, while at the same time denouncing lists of successful or famous adoptees?
Joy:
I think the meta-message, forgive me for using that term, on adoptee as famous person sends a subtle covert message that we are surprised to report adoptees are employable, we had a similar campaign around here in a area called “the canal” which is heavily Latin, so the city made all these banners of Mexican people in work clothes with the slogan, “the faces of the canal” I suppose they think of it as bringing people together but from my perspective it was the brain child of those so steeped in racism, they couldn’t realize that a campaign that said in effect, “Mexicans, they are like people, who knew?”
I mean imagine such a campaign in an affluent area. Same idea, like when they told us the retarded kids were special, special just started meaning retarded …
Dad:
I’m willing to accept that the loss of biological family is significant trauma, whether precipitated by adoption or not.
I do not accept that adoption in and of itself is more traumatic than physical/sexual abuse or severe neglect by a biological parent (or an extended family member).
Perhaps you do, I don’t know.
Joy:
That question is too broad to answer possibly ever. Certainly, it is a crap shoot even on a carefully considered case by case basis.
The important thing to note is adoption is not necessarily protection from abuse of any kind, in the baked baby case, adoption was probably the worst possible thing that could have happened to this child.
Normally, I would think adoption is better than a life of institutionalized care, in this case I don’t think so.
I personally, don’t believe in the permanent guardianship theory either, I mean it sounds great, but then again communism sounds great but both are predicated on the notion that there are lots of well-intentioned, honest, selfless people populating the earth, and that is not the human animal, maybe rare exceptions, but not a large enough segment to make something like that work.
I think we are better off understanding what adoption is in its entirety vs. the black and white thinking that should be the domain of children exclusively.
Anonymous wrote:
“Fuck you”
Yet, another one of the more articulate supporters of adoption reform, sigh. I bet it took her ten minutes to write that.
Geez…with supporters like that I’m not surprised we’ve only opened records in a few states.
http://www.twincities.com/rosario
Serial killer myths.
J.
Summer reading list: the ultimate mystery
By Rubén Rosario
Article Last Updated: 07/12/2008 11:46:23 PM CDT
Everyone should have the summer reading bug. I have it. But unlike most folks, I’m not lying on a beach chair or nestling in a cozy corner of a couch with the latest self-help book of the month or the latest thriller from John Sandford.
My tastes admittedly are a little different. I’m cuddling up with a new book and FBI report on serial killers. Call me twisted. Call me still fascinated about this most uncommon but much-researched category of human predator.
I understand the prurient curiosity, if not obsession, with such killers. Real and fictitious killers from Jack the Ripper to Hannibal Lecter have been the source of many books and movies. Check Yahoo for Ted Bundy’s name and up pop 2.79 million mentions.
My curiosity is more clinical. It’s more like a climate scientist trying to find what makes a tornado tick, as well as how we cannot only predict where it will strike, but also how we can stop it.
The FBI report — “Serial Murder: Multi-Disciplinary Perspectives for Investigators” — doesn’t break any new ground. It does try to dispel some public misconceptions about serial killers.
“Much of the general public’s knowledge concerning serial murder is a product of Hollywood productions,” states the report, actually a compilation of observations from 135 American law-enforcement, mental health and academic experts who gathered for a serial-killer symposium in San Antonio three years ago.
The report seems to go out of its way to emphasize
——————————————————————————–
——————————————————————————–
that serial killers are “not all white males” or loners.
“Contrary to popular belief, serial killers span all racial groups,” the report says. “The racial diversification of serial killers generally mirrors that of the overall U.S. population.” OK.
The experts also agree there is no generic profile of a serial killer and that a multitude of factors — from biological and hereditary to environmental — contribute to the creation of such sociopaths.
The report, more aimed at cops than Joe Sixpack, comes up with a workable definition of serial killings. The experts agreed on the following: “A series of three or more killings, not less than one of which was committed within the United States, having common characteristics such as to suggest the reasonable possibility that the crimes were committed by the same actor or actors.”
They dropped altogether the term “spree killer,” a source of some debate in the media and law-enforcement circles during 1997’s three-month nationwide manhunt for Andrew Cunanan. The San Diego native killed two Twin Cities men, a Chicago real estate developer and a New Jersey cemetery caretaker before he gunned down Gianni Versace on July 15, 1997, outside the fashion designer’s South Beach mansion in Miami Beach. Cunanan was found dead of a self-inflicted gunshot wound in a Miami Beach houseboat eight days after the Versace killing.
But what truly makes or gives rise to a serial killer like Cunanan or his ilk throughout history?
The book “How to Make A Serial Killer: The Twisted Development of Innocent Children into the World’s Most Sadistic Murderers” (2008, Ulysses Press) provides richer insight into the minds and makeup of these demented killers than the FBI report.
The British-based authors and researchers, Christopher Berry-Dee and Steven Morris, spent eight years interviewing serial killers, their friends and families, case cops, clinicians, relatives of victims and others. They sought to find out whether these people were born, bred, taught or trained to kill. The quick answer is that it depends, but probably more often than not their behavior stems from a volatile mix of factors.
The book focuses not on the gruesome crimes but the early histories of 11 serial killers from three continents. They include perhaps the world’s most prolific known serial killer, Dr. Harold Shipman. The British physician, dubbed “Dr. Death,” is suspected of killing as many as 284 people. Stateside killers profiled in the book include Washington, D.C.-area snipers John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo; Milwaukee’s Jeffrey Dahmer; and Chicago’s John Wayne Gacy, the “Killing Clown.”
Each chapter ends with an analysis of each killer based on the FBI’s high-risk register of 13 family-background characteristics that adversely affect a child’s behavior into adulthood. Those factors range from alcohol abuse and sexual problems to whether the killer suffered from a head trauma or possesses the ”demon seed,” a crime-linked genetic trait found in other family members.
The results are striking. For example, Gacy possessed 84.5 percent of the 13 factors. Shipman, who killed hundreds more than Gacy, had none of the 13. But most killers profiled scored high.
The authors generally conclude that most serial killers are a product of nature and nurture, a combination of biological, environmental and other factors that combine to produce a human killing machine. Many of the predictors have their roots in childhood. It is there, the authors note, where we as a society have the best chance to detect or even prevent what may come.
Although Berry-Dee also found nothing new in the FBI report, he agrees there is no magic wand or mental detector created yet to clearly tag who will grow up to be a serial killer.
“In truth,” Berry-Dee writes in an e-mail, “we are still decades away from understanding the complex psychological intricacies, and the workings, of the serial killers’ mind, and when we finally arrive at some form of conclusion — be it commonly or generically — we will still find that the stable door has opened and the horse has long bolted.”
Next on my reading list? Much lighter fare — Todd Clear’s “Imprisoning Communities: How Mass Incarceration Makes Disadvantaged Neighborhoods Worse.”
Rubén Rosario can be reached at [email protected] or 651-228-5454.
ONLINE
To read the FBI report on serial killers, go to fbi.gov.
A WITCH’S BREW
As described in the book “How to Make A Serial Killer,” the FBI has used a “high-risk” register to measure serial killers and other violent offenders with 13 family background characteristics.
They are:
1. Alcohol abuse
2. Drug abuse
3. Psychiatric history
4. Criminal history
5. Sexual problems
6. Physical abuse
7. Psychological abuse
8-9. Dominant father figure aligned with a negative relationship with male caretaker figures
10. Negative relationships with natural or adoptive mother
11. Treated unfairly
12. Head trauma
13. “Demon seed”
Source: Christopher Berry-Dee and Steven Morris
Jesus Christ, what a load of hatred there is to be found in this thread.
Niels, I can see your point on why you include Chase/Dmitry on the list, though I can’t say I agree with it. I see no causal connection between his adoption and his death, only the fact that one preceded the other.
Robin and the Improper Adoptee, among others, seem to think they’ve got a lock on who adopters are and won’t be persuaded there’s a decent human being in the bunch. The word bigots leaps to mind.
J.
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Sincerely,
A rotten little BasTURD and who happens to agree with a crack head ho!(pass the pipe Robin…)
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Obama,
Is was raised by a single mom. He knows who his father is and has visited his country father is Kenyan.
Also Obama’s mother had support and look how well she did raising her son!
gale
Thanks gale(I replied to your comment on my blog too.)
My natural mother was also an adoptive mother. I guess that makes her Mrs. Evil. My natural father adopted his stepson. I guess makes him Mr. Evil.
I personally think that adopting is just taking on somebody else’s problem, but I fail to see how that makes adopters bad people. It’s the industry that is the enemy, not those who are exploited by it.
There are lots of good birthers, adopters, and bastards. There are also plenty of shitty ones. Adoptive families don’t have a lock on dysfunction. The family of any sort is oppresive by definition.
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And Mr. Fake Dad, you are just pissed I made an incredible point that you have NO answer to-typical whiny spoiled brat AP answer you give.
Read it through, again. Slowly. It should come to you. Or maybe not.
not /nɒt/
–adverb 1. (used to express negation, denial, refusal, or prohibition): You must not do that. It’s not far from here.
2. U.S. Slang. (used jocularly as a postpositive interjection to indicate that a previous statement is untrue): Adoption is abusive. Not!
Dad
Dad said
Jesus Christ, what a load of hatred there is in this thread.
Yup…when the gloves come off in adoptionland we realize how separated we really are. Everybody here supports open records. Yet, we couldn’t be a more divided group.
I have more in common with a banana than I do with some of these sick bitches (their word not mine).
Imagine using this boy’s accidental death to further some kind of cause. I think every time one of these children die, some of these misfits are secretly happy. Because they think it proves their point about how “unfit” adopters are.
I guess when you are marginalized and irrelevant you just lash out at the world. You just strike out like a two year old having a temper tantrum because no one of any importance cares what you think.
I guess if dad is a “fake father” than the word for birthmothers is “incubator” right?
anonymous,,,
give it a break you are trying to stir the pot and
I personally have had enough!
Gale
won’t even justify the anger you feel toward you mother or towards us mothers. Support your adopter, if your adoption was so great WHY are you here anyway?????
no please don’t answer, but wonder..about that.
Marley,
I don’t know your family, so I cannot say whether they are indeed Mr. and Mrs. Evil, but I bet if they left a child to roast to death in a car, I would call them that. There is neglect and then there is malignant neglect, and when a baby is left in a car for the entire day, I would call that malignant neglect. Somewhat akin to malignant narcissism, which I have also seen on this thread.
When we reach the point where we are doing nothing more than name calling, it has gone on long enough. I always find it interesting how brave people are when they can hide under anonymity. I have never posted without using my own name, or tried to hide behind an anonymous name.
And, whoever it was that said that “every one on here” is in favor of open records assumes a lot. Many of the mothers that I know are no longer willing to lift a finger in support of adoptee access only, purely because of conversations like this. We know that when the records are open for adoptees, if that ever happens, that will be the end our usefulness, and we will be kicked to the curb like the “irrelevant” bitches you are calling us. We have finally decided to work on our own issue, thank you very much. We really don’t give a shit if you support us. Not a one of the women I know will lose a moment’s sleep if an adopter doesn’t get our backs…sorry, they already got our babies! I think our backs are safer without the support of most.
Sandy Young
Senior Mother 1967
Sandy Young: “And, whoever it was that said that “every one on here” is in favor of open records assumes a lot. Many of the mothers that I know are no longer willing to lift a finger in support of adoptee access only, purely because of conversations like this. We know that when the records are open for adoptees, if that ever happens, that will be the end our usefulness, and we will be kicked to the curb like the “irrelevant” bitches you are calling us. We have finally decided to work on our own issue, thank you very much. We really don’t give a shit if you support us. Not a one of the women I know will lose a moment’s sleep if an adopter doesn’t get our backs…sorry, they already got our babies! I think our backs are safer without the support of most.
Sandy Young
Senior Mother 1967″
Open records is about restoring rights to adoptees, the only party in an adoption that had NO choice in the matter. See if you can take your head out of the pity pot long enough to remember that.
Kathy/Meagan787
WOW
Holy shit you people can talk or Be Mean to each other ! 😛
Okay Just a few comments from me.
As I stated before why are we all so focused on the moron that left his child in the car to roast ? Why are we not looking at the ADOPTIVE mother ? where the fuck was she all day ?
I went to the dentist yesterday and shopping. Just so we are clear here I am a Biological mother of two 🙂 I left them with my husband (I don’t do daycare, I don’t leave them with babysitters, and frankly at the moment they are left with my husband or not at all. My daughter has started kindy and that was a massive thing for me to let her go for 2 days a week to entrust her life with someone else)
Anyway I digress, so I rang a number of times to CHECK ON MY BABIES! during the 5 hrs I was gone.
So unless this Adoptive Mother was in hospital having an operation or in a coma WHERE THE FUCK Was she ?
She is JUST as responsible for this baby’s death as the stupid adoptive father was for leaving the baby to die a horrible agonizing death on his own.
So where is she ? where is the media story about her ? and why the husband had the care of the boy, the care to take him from HOME To DAYCARE on his way to WORK which he promptly forgot to do and for 8 hours his wife the ADOPTIVE MOTHER Didnt call ?
Give me a break. I want to know WHERE She was. I want to Know WHY she wasnt taking care of a 21 Month old BABY, a newly adopted baby…..
I mean don’t adoptive parents like wait their *entire* lives for a baby and the long and grueling process that it is to actually GET A baby………and when they finally do aren’t they just over the moon with joy and love and never want to let THEIR Baby out of their sight ? I mean don’t they have gotcha day parties and forever family parties and take a thousand and one photos and videos about their *Adoption Jounrey* Their pain and suffering to get this perfect little being into their life that was just “Meant to Be”
So what the fuck happened here ?
Where the fuck does Daycare fit into that picture ?
Daycare for over EIGHT HOURS ? of being abandoned for someone else to look after their little accessory ?
And before you jump on me, adopters, if they had of been the gushing forever family never letting the baby out of their sight, I wouldn’t be talking about them as using their baby as an accessory, But then again if they were those type of adopters I wouldn’t be having this conversation, now would I !!!!
Now to comment on some comments given
Good God, people. This was an ACCIDENT. This sort of story is horrifying, and what’s worse, it is not that unusual.
It is also horrifying that so many of you pathetic people are raking this father over the coals because he adopted this child. He will pay for this for the rest of his life, whether or not he goes to jail, or, as some of you so ungraciously put it, is locked in a hot car himself.
No wonder why so few people take you idiots seriously.
-just another adult adoptee
No I’m not raking him over the coals for leaving the child in the car to roast for 8 hrs, I’m raking him over the coals for taking his NEWLY ADOPTED BABY to daycare for 8 hrs – h but he forgot to do that even ! And thus resulted in the baby’s horrifying death.
Not only did these adoptive parents HA That is a laugh – PARENTS – let me rephrase that – THESE ADOPTERS (And NOW I know why people refer to them as that because some adopters do NOT deserve the title Adoptive Parents)
So THESE ADOPTERS not only cared little enough about their adoptive child to just shove him into ANOTHER FACILITY for 8 hours but they actually really REALLY Didnt care enough about him to even remember that he was IN The car and had to BE TAKEN TO DAYCARE TO START WITH!
Kippa
Well, there is the issue of putting a newly adopted 21 month old child, adopted from Russia only three months before, into day care.
Yes my exact comments all the way through from the moment I read this tragedy
Sandy Young
And, whoever it was that said that “every one on here” is in favor of open records assumes a lot. Many of the mothers that I know are no longer willing to lift a finger in support of adoptee access only, purely because of conversations like this. We know that when the records are open for adoptees, if that ever happens, that will be the end our usefulness, and we will be kicked to the curb like the “irrelevant” bitches you are calling us. We have finally decided to work on our own issue, thank you very much. We really don’t give a shit if you support us. Not a one of the women I know will lose a moment’s sleep if an adopter doesn’t get our backs…sorry, they already got our babies! I think our backs are safer without the support of most.
Sandy Young
Senior Mother 1967
WOW Sandy 🙁 I’m devestated that you would lump ALL Adoptees into that one basket 🙁 Kinda like how you feel about being lumped into a single unworthy birth mother basket by people RIGHT ?
What upsets me more than anything is that there are
Good People and Rotten People in this world
And this applies to ALL Sorts of people whether they be black or white, or some other colour whether they be Christian or Hindus, Jews or some other religion whether they be Adopted or not , A Mother of ANY Sort, A father of Any sort.
Just because you gave birth doesnt make you BAD, Just because you didnt give birth doesnt make you bad.
People make BAD Decisions. This Adopter didn’t just make Bad Decisions though, he made decisions that killed his child.
I am very saddened that you are so bitter towards adoptees ?
Open records is not just for this generation but for all the generations to come. For the child you lost through adoption – for THEIR Children and their childrens children…
Everyone deserves to know their heritage EVERYONE.
And although I don’t agree with the poster above me ‘s way in expressing about open records and the right for adoptees to have their records I completely concur that The adoptee IS the only one who had NO CHOICE in being adopted.
I truly think that people need to speak to each other in a better mannered way –
We are all HERE in this life , however we got here to be the best we can and to enjoy our time on earth as best we can through out all the hurdles that we are given…There are ALWAYS (sadly) going to be injustice and evil horrors that will happen and that we will debate over but can it not be done with a sense of some sort of decorum and manners ?
“Sandy wrote “We know that when the records are open for adoptees, if that ever happens, that will be the end our usefulness, and we will be kicked to the curb like the “irrelevant” bitches you are calling us. “
That isn’t what has happened in the U.K, and personally I don’t believe it’s what would happen in North America. I believe open records are *absolutely foundational* to any kind of positive changes in *real* (as opposed to half-arsed deformist) adoption reform, and that includes attitudes towards mothers who’ve lost children to adoption.
Kathy said “Open records is about restoring rights to adoptees, the only party in an adoption that had NO choice in the matter.”
Right on, Kathy.
Jane said “Open records is not just for this generation but for all the generations to come. For the child you lost through adoption – for THEIR Children and their childrens children…
Everyone deserves to know their heritage EVERYONE.”
Quite. And I agree with what you say about Chase/Dimitri’s adopters and the horribly flawed system that put him with these unsuitable people.
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Cry me a river, Sandy.
Talk about dishing it out, but being unable to take it. You and your nutty crowd dump sh*t on adopters 24/7, but the minute the tables get turned you feel abused. Boo hoo…
Anybody who isn’t hopelessly brainwashed sees the truth here.
I worry more about your crowd actively supporting open records than doing nothing. You’re such a bunch of kooks that you scare away support. And, I’m not talking about birthmothers generally. I’m talking about the real nuts. I’m talking about the ones who stay awake at night sticking pins in a voodoo doll that represent adopters.
I agree there are plenty of birthmothers who are victims of this system. Your behavior is counterproductive though. Believe me, you don’t elicit either support or compassion. I think the smart ones have figured that out and wouldn’t touch you with a ten foot pole.
ia wrote:
“The rest of what this witch did to me would take 6 months to post so I will stop here.
I am sorry your adoption experience sucked. Seriously. I don’t know you, but I hope you were able to reconnect with your natural family, or have risen above your bad experience and made a loving family of your own.
“You get attacked “Dad” because you are just like the typical adopter who thinks adoption is all about you”
It’s uncanny. You have me pegged to a tee. I bought and paid for my two baby adoptees, cut their umbilical cords, closed down their “open” adoptions before the ink was dry, stuck ’em in daycare 10 hours each day, and bad mouth their breeder mothers every chance I get.
“and you see things blah through tunnel blah vison, oblivious to blah the feelings blah of others round blah blah you-you think blah blah blah blah blah.
All this, and a comparison to a rapist too. Charming.
You don’t know squat about me or the history of my two children, thank you very much.
Dad
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Good grief! Comparing adoption to rape is absurd. It insults those of us, including myself, who have been raped. The comparison trivializes rape and adoption. We are not each other’s enemy. The enemy is the liberal patriarchial state.
Marley,
I don’t think Improper is comparing rape to adoption both are heinous crimes if
you read the definitions she posted the acts are similar. They are alike in very nature of how something was taken, something that didn’t need to be taken but for the desires of someone else it was taken. Taken
because they could whether we wanted it or not it was taken.
Our very souls were taken, and yes, that is dramatic but thats what I personally equate adoption to the taking a mother’s soul. I was never the person I could have been if my son had been raised by me. NOR was he, he
was not raised by those who loved and cared for him. Maybe one person the adopter might have cared or learned to care for him, trying to mold him into her family. He was born into his family not hers. I can honestly say as a “mother” she could NEVER love my baby, my son like I do as his mother. He is from me not a her, he is my flesh, my blood and I bore him,with blood, sweat, and pain.
That is what a mother feels. Now I don’t go and say all mothers, but I can say “most” mothers feel this way it is a natural feeling. Not something WE had to learn.I loved my baby before birth. He knew my smell, heard my voice, responded to my moods and eating habits.We bonded and were one when he was in uterreo. He responded to me and I to him that is being a mother. I took good care of him as I did myself. I knew he needed me and I needed him. More than he will ever know, as I have tried to show him love, the love of a mom. True, unconditional love and just the other night he told me I gave him that unconditional love. Makes me tear up just typing that but its true a mother’s true, love for her baby born to her. Not another.
Taking something that doesn’t belong to you a rape is what that is just like when a baby is taken from its mother she is raped of her baby.
I know rape is a violent act. I have never been raped but do know many women that have been including some good friends. It is horrific and I acknowledge that.
Having ones baby taken is also a horrendous act of violence. In some cases those social “wreckers” gave the mothers a little time to hold and see their babies, I as a mother never saw or held my son. This is terrible and why if the wrecker was helping me (right) would I as a mother not be allowed to hold him.
I can answer that its because they were afraid that I would not let him go they wanted my baby for the adopter and didn’t care if he had any time with me. Then they threw him into foster care, which I wasn’t even aware of as a lot of us mothers were lied to by these wreckers..legal employees of our “government”
I never saw a judge, never saw a lawyer or the inside of a courtroom..why?
Where were my rights as a mother? Where were my son’s rights as my son.
They were gone as the wrecker deemed me unfit to parent, condemned me because there was a market..and the market was a baby for a stranger who had more rights than me.
As I watch what is happening right now in U.S. the institutions that are being caught in corrupt illegal scandals institutions that need bail outs from our tax dollars after these corrupt men have made their money and now although we have these checks and balances although the checks are not being applied or overlooked for the “balances” of these corrupt peoples balances.
That is exactly the way adoption is it is out of control and now adopters are going out of the country because they can and our government supports it by adoption welfare somehow this is right?
I think not, and if any of you others that HAVE adopted and have been adopted think this is right, you have a warped sense of righteousness its not right to scour the world because you need or want a baby.
Our system which is consumerism, a capitalist society, WE are now seeing the effects of what this does to not only us but the world in general.
Greediness, the taking of something that doesn’t belong to you but you want it you need it..so much that you will go world wide to get it. I am sick to death of those greedy Americans who think of themselves first, and then turn around and neglect the very thing they went after.
Its just a sense of materialism that is justified by the person that adopts as “I” saved a baby look at me aren’t I wonderful.
How many babies could be saved just by supporting many instead of owning one you could save many, but no its just not right to help without getting something in return, your own, or someone you call your own which will never be because you never owned it to begin with it wasn’t yours to have, or keep or acquire, or desire.
Improper Adoptee, please don’t think I am speaking for you. But I have to tell you to try to be calm to these attacks, they are vicious, and have been since we mothers have been speaking out against adoption.We were silenced, and threatened by those who thought we should go to our graves without speaking out against the injustices committed in the name of adoption. One mother Sandy Muser even went to jail she wrote a book about this experience, thats what lengths our government has done to try to silence mothers. It didn’t work and thankfully we now have the internet to tell the truths of what happened to mothers.
Remember this sweetie,those who do not speak out against adoption or do speak in favor of it more than likely never had a baby taken, only taken one, or even been the taken and have to be grateful and loyal for thats what is subtly taught by those who adopt. I don’t expect that of any of my grown adults, its not right.
There are exceptions to that rule but they are rare for sure.
Gale
Improper Adoptee
Thank you for the kind words, and speaking out as you do it is a honor to me as a mother of adoption loss.
Gale wrote:Our system which is consumerism, a capitalist society, WE are now seeing the effects of what this does to not only us but the world in general.”
I’ll probably post more later, but there’s more updates on Dimitry to report. I the meantime I do want to say that I disagee with your above statement, which is something that nearly subscribes to. I did at one time.
I now take an opposite view. Current adoption practice is based on historical Progressivism and socialism. It may be fueled by capitalism, but the practice is rooted in socialism, eugenics, social engineering, perfectionism, and globalism. Scratch a adoption agent and you’ll find a Trotskyte and Straussian. The social side of Straussism has yet to be explored.
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ia wrote:
“I don’t want our pain to be in vain, and want the records opened, so at least having to talk about all we have been through is at least worth it. I see people like “Dad” as a road block to be able to get too what I need”
I’m now a road block to open records? Wow. Tell me, what exactly tipped you off, since we never once touched on the subject? Pretty soon I’m gonna grow horns and a goatee.
Honey, if I could produce your records, you’d have them faster than that wildly jerking knee of yours.
No, I am a adopter, and that makes me your evil arch enemy. If it’s easier for you to pathologize me to assuage your grief, then by all means, continue to throw completely unfounded accusations at me. I can take it.
My kids have their records. They know who their natural parents are. They know we believe reunification, though painful, might be in their best interest some day. They know we will support them, even encourage them, but we can’t insist that they search.
If and when – that’s up to them.
My children have far more in their files than the state gave us because we worked hard to gather their information before the trail went cold, roadblock to open records that I am.
Get bent.
-and I guess I am just sick of being polite while they cut in front of me every time.
Polite? I think your grief and pain, while contributing to your passion, has led to some delusions.
Good luck to you. We’re not able to communicate at all, so I think I’ll take my leave at this point.
I hope you find what you’re looking for.
Dad
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Agreed
I dont think you can compare Rape to Adoption either
And guess what ? Raped here too by a *friends ex boyfriend friend *
Anyone see a pattern ? thats 3 adoptees raped in this one comment thread
Oh and that was during my *fogged up* period of life too…how about you ?
Fogged up = Trusting
Anyway I dont think you can compare Rape to Adoption BUT Then again I had Wonderful people that adopted me. I love My Mum and Dad with all my heart (Although my Mum died nearly 8 years ago now)
But I think that is the difference I had a wonderful life with them they treated me better than a biological child, they had two of their own.
There is a discussion elsewhere at the moment how adopters should be held to be MORE Responsible for that child that they adopt…They are taking someone elses child to raise protect and Love (supposedly) and therefore they have MORE Of a responsibility – they HAVE To go that EXTRA MILE (IMO) My parents did.
So up until January of this year when I discovered Adoption on the Internet I never new of the horrors that exist in the adoption industry and yes I call it that now too.
I am for ETHICAL Adoption of Orphans and Children of Abuse ONLY – Even though I had a beautiful set of Adoptive Parents…Adoption is like a disease inside of me. I fight it daily. It tries to destroy me daily.
Its such a struggle
So I do not believe in adoption except for orphans and children of abuse AND THEREFORE Adoptive Parents MUST Be held MORE Accountable and responsible for these children.
They have suffered enough as is
Who the Fuck puts a 21month old into daycare. I read somewhere else where someone said ‘how do you know he didnt thrive in daycare’
How anyone can even think that is BEYOND ME.
A 21 month Old baby ADOPTED OR NOT Will NOT Thrive in daycare
A child should be with its mother for the first 6 years….the defining years of the childs life…And that is even More so with an adopted child….
And still no one has commented on the Adoptive mother ?
Why didnt she have the baby ?
Why didnt she call her husband to CHECK that he took the baby to daycare and everything was fine when he dropped him off ?
Where was she ?
Well, I’ve known Dad for well over 10 years and he didn’t insult me here at all. We have disagreed on many things over that time, almost always on matters not related to adoption. He is one of the first people ever to know about my infatuation and alas! unsuccessful pursuit of Amish men. Those of us from alt.adoption know the story of his adoptions and it’s about as far as “child-stealing” as you can get. Dad (and J) are two of the good guys. I certainly hope that nobody tries to carry the rape comparison over into the real world of politics.
As for fogged = trusting Try waking up in the middle of the night with a perfect stranger holding knife to your throat, raping you and stealing your last $5.00 before payday. Afterwards I went looking for him with a tire iron.
Improper Adoptee,
Oh, you don’t have to tell me why you are upset. I just want you to know there are always going to be those adopters, who claim the mother didn’t want the baby, the mother was a drugee (although most Baby Scoop Mothers were not)
These are the same people who try to twist the adoptee’s feeling during reunion to try to save their sorry ass. My son’s adoptress tried that and he told me what she said. I reacted to that and told him she didn’t KNOW me, so what in the f is she talking about. This is the same “mother” that told him “he stabbed her in the heart” because he wanted to know me his mom. He told her she knew her mom..guess that made her stop and think..
I can imagine how you must feel about not finding. Are you in U.S.? Seems I remember that you aren’t. I will make another attempt to contact you through your web page,hope you got my message there. Great Site!!!
Improper you said:
“reminds me every time of people who do not listen to the victims of pain they have caused them”
You have got that right, you are just supposed to shut up and not talk about it. Just pretend everything in adoption is great. Well, it isn’t and the baby that died in that car is proof it isn’t right. I have yet to hear anything on any news station about this and we won’t.
Because adoption
is a big money maker..it brings billions in to agencies and it benefits adopters. Thats why we only hear what they want to put out. Like the crap a couple of months ago that adopters are better parents..lets see because they wanted them…I think was the answer. Thats the tripe we have to read. Oh, and don’t forget the one from Donaldson that a B mommy is a good mommy guess they are trying to prop us up there. After the damage has been done to our babies and ourselves. I say they can go take a hike we mothers are speaking for ourselves, and we were NEVER promised confidentiality which they claim is the reason the records can’t be open.
Again protecting the churches, and agencies, as the records are falsified just like the amended b certs..all lies.
Now they are protecting us after raping us of our babies?
Give me a break,,I don’t need their lies and there are no secrets with me or my son. He knows the truth and he knows how I had been coerced and he was taken for another woman by a corrupt adoption system.
Wreckers are scum to me. They should be helping mothers not helping themselves to our babies. That is a disgrace..
Anyway, just my response to you.
hugs to you sweetie and keep up the good fight.
I don’t think you will be disappointed when you find.
Unlike, “dads” opinion just another way to try to scare adoptee’s and keep them from searching.
Yes I agree seriously the nastyness is just not productive.
It doesnt get anyone anywhere
Arent we all fighting the same battle ?
Ethical Adoptions ?
Shit Marley 🙁 That must have been so terrifying 🙁 I’m so sorry that happened to you 🙁
Yes, I agree seriously the nastyness is just not productive. It doesn’t get anyone anywhere. Aren’t we all fighting the same battle? Ethical adoptions?
You see, we aren’t in complete agreement here. I’m an adoptee and the battle I am fighting is for open records. Open records may lead to more ethical adoptions and I hope that they do. But if you have listened to this discussion, the nutjobs from OUSA and their supporters are saying there is no such a thing as an ethical adoption. It doesn’t exist (can’t exist) they claim.
I’ve participated in the records movement for years now and it would be very easy to stay silent as many do and just pretend we are all one happy family, but in truth its just not so. Its got to be faced up too.
What bothers me the most about the nutjobs is that I honestly have come to believe they are a detriment to obtaining open records. The inclusion of lunatic fringes in any social movement is problematic. Who knows what the actual numbers are? My hope is that it is a small group that just makes alot of noise. But whatever their numbers, I strongly suspect that people like Improper Adoptee, Gale, Sandy, and others drive away people we don’t see who honestly would be more useful. We need people who can talk to state legislators and other responsible people without sounding like they are stark raving lunatics.
If you believe all adoptions are unethical, that rape is comparable to adoption, that all adoptive parents are “fake” parents (or just bad parents) you hold extreme views. In fact, whether you accept it or not, your views fall so far outside the mainstream that people in the political establishment will reject you out of hand.
I guess people like this could still be useful to the open records cause if they would shut up and just send money, but I’ve found them unlikely to act that way. What they seem to want to do is take a mainstream cause like open records and subvert into something else. Birthmothers have had shabby treatment in the past and there is no excuse for it. But ultimately, the records movement is not a birthmother’s rights movement. Its about adoptees, human rights, dignity, and freedom. That’s the cause I signed on for.
Sometimes you have to say things that aren’t polite. This is one of those times. Its just my opinion, but I think it would be better if we let the true nutjobs pursue their cause, while we pursue ours.
If you believe all adoptions are unethical, that rape is comparable to adoption, that all adoptive parents are “fake” parents (or just bad parents) you hold extreme views. In fact, whether you accept it or not, your views fall so far outside the mainstream that people in the political establishment will reject you out of hand.
I presume that wasn’t directed at me?
Because the beginning of the comment was addressed to me, you quoted me in fact.
But I didnt say any of those things
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Whoops, my bad-not babylovechild, amy (Adoption And It’s Triad) I meant-
Anonymous,
Ok, I get it I am a nutcase..
and from Ousa.
According to anonymous for Open Records, somewhere in U.S. afraid to let her identity known because she has been fighting for ten years..and still wants to remain in the shadows?
Why? I too have posted under anon. when I have wanted to be mean is that why you do? Or is it you don’t want your “parents” to know you are fighting for your records, you don’t want to hurt them. If this is the later you really need to come out and believe me they will survive. If you could let them know just maybe you would feel better and they MIGHT be in favor of open records. Maybe, help who knows.
Personally, I don’t feel the need that I used to have those records open. My records, are still sealed my social records, are state secrets, and good things don’t happen when secrets are held under lock and key.
I do have my son’s and my original b cert. The original one that is stamped by the state and I have the amended one the black cert that lies and is fabricated.
Right, after my reunion, I wanted all adoptee’s to find, to know the truth. Now, I see there are adoptee’s such as yourself, the kind that acknowledge that there were bad things that happened to mothers, but adoption is ethical and wonderful.
Well, I hate to tell you they are NOT!
Thats the adoption land, forever family, fairy tell. I call it NeverLand. don’t ask, and I will never tell attitude that exists in adoptive homes.
I do think adoptee’s testimony has been deterimental to their own cause, they want records open, while on the other hand they pretend that their adoption has been wonderful. EVEN if it is the legislatures don’t take you serious because they say if adoption has been so wonderful why bother to open those records, you are a happy adoptee.
They see you talking out of both sides of your mouth. I am sorry but if you have been working for ten years on open records,and have only got as far as you have there are reasons these legislatures are not budging. Those same legislatures may have their own secrets to keep hidden.
They do not feel the need to change something that is so wonderful, that you are happy with, why change something that isn’t broken?
By the way, I was one of those mother’s who sent money to Oregon, to have her name put in the Oregonian when WE were fighting together, did you? WE won in case you don’t know.
To tell you the truth I had been involved with OUSA for less than a year.
OUSA, does not represent me. You see I am one of those “b” mommies from the past, NOT DEAD, mind you, maybe not too far from your age, I am in my fiftes.I am guessing you are in your 40’s.
I have not posted there for awhile,and I do know they will not let adoptee’s hold any positions on the board there, so that maybe another place you feel they are wrong, who knows I don’t really care.
I am wonder about your anger towards mothers?
Don’t take your anger out on me. I did nothing to you but state my thoughts on adoption. You really need to take that anger and push it towards open records.
Anon said:
“You see, we aren’t in complete agreement here”
My Response:
“WE don’t have to be, but I will not help adoptee’s like you. Those who acknowledge there have been bad things happen to moms, and then go on with how ethical adoption is.”
“While wanting me to send my money. I have what I need first and foremost my son!”
“I have had his sealed b cert for years now the true accurate one that doesn’t have the lies on it. And by the way, I do know his dad and he is on it too..It wasn’t a one time fly by night pregnancy, most of my BSE mothers had relationships with fathers, long standing, its the wreckers, the clergy (nuns) who falsified the records not listing fathers for their own agendas.”
YOU said:
“But if you have listened to this discussion, the nutjobs from OUSA and their supporters are saying there is no such a thing as an ethical adoption. It doesn’t exist (can’t exist) they claim”
I say:
When records are sealed there are secrets hidden there. They sealed those records to protect who? Take one guess and it wasn’t you or me. Although, thats what they want you to believe.”
You said:
WE are one big family..!!
I said: “NOT so on my part. My family is those born into it. The family that I had, and still have although they are grown now. I am on my grandkids now..
Don’t worry I won’t say or pretend YOU are in my big happy family. I am not into playing the fake games, grown from this scam they call adoption, the social experiment that failed, I think Marley had touched on that when I posted about capitalism, and buying babies for those who can pay even though some of those are mortgaging their homes, while still getting adoption “welfare” help to adopt..Why so much money for something so ethical and wonderful as adoption?
You said:
I guess people like this could still be useful to the open records cause if they would shut up and just send money, but I’ve found them unlikely to act that way.”
I said: Bet your sweet a$$ I am not sending money to YOU! And I am not shutting my mouth either, for you, for anyone, YOU have your nerve..don’t dictate, to me what I am to do..it isn’t going to happen now or ever. I am true to truths not lies, not pretend, not fake, not arrogant adoptee’s who think that their mothers might have been abused, but adotption is ethical and we should just send money, and shut up..no way!!!”
You said:
What they seem to want to do is take a mainstream cause like open records and subvert into something else.
I said: Subvert it into what maybe us mothers having the records onsealed for us? I hate to tell you but I have a right to my son’s bcert too. I do have it but it is my medical record too. WE are both there..not like fake ones all blackened with fake people in place of mothers
Lies and if you want to live that way fine by me..go for it. I take it you don’t have your records..”
You Said:
ultimately, the records movement is not a birthmother’s rights movement.
I said: Its my right to have my medical b cert to say who gave birth. And obviously, the state thinks so too, thats why I have it..its mine..now my son has it. It took two judges but the second one saw the truth.”
YOU said:
Its about adoptees, human rights, dignity, and freedom. That’s the cause I signed on for.
I said:
Of course its your right to have a document that has the truths on it. I have never signed up for open records, but was very close to until I encountered your type of adoptee. I will help any adoptee find, search, or whatever but the fight is yours, no money from me, no help, let your adopters help you although I seriously doubt that as they are the ones that are protected with the sealed records. Good Luck its your fight, win it, go for it. I will be watching and cheering adoptee’s on by the side lines.
By the way do you know Kali the one who is having a open records protest, and do you consider her a nutcase, since she is working so hard? There are adoptee’s who have been reunited, who like her fight on, to help is she extreme? Just curious she is one of many who see the injustice done in adoption are those adoptee’s nutcases..?
You said:
The inclusion of lunatic fringes in any social movement is problematic.
I said:
How ridiculous you are, and how immature. Who knows why you are so hateful is it the wonderful “parents” that raised you? Grow up, come into the light, make up a name, come out adoptee,,
You said:
Who knows what the actual numbers are? My hope is that it is a small group that just makes alot of noise. But whatever their numbers, I strongly suspect that people like Improper Adoptee, Gale, Sandy, and others drive away people we don’t see who honestly would be more useful. We need people who can talk to state legislators and other responsible people without sounding like they are stark raving lunatics.
I said:
“WE” is that you?
we don’t see who honestly would be more useful huh???
Who won’t DRIVE people away, oh, I think you drive your fair share away..yourself
all by your lonesome, not WE, YOU…
YOU need to be honest about what your agenda is:
1) Is it fighting moms, and disrespecting them because they hurt you
2) Moms that don’t respect adoption or adopters because of the abuses in adoption.
3)YOU think you have one cause but you have many, and it is showing here.
4)Protect your adopters, any adopters, they are somehow worthy because they adopted..?
Which is absurd.
Anyone, can pass a home study. Look at Masha’s “dad” he did.
5)Don’t lie to legislatures, they have no need to protect you they are protecting adopters,themselves, as they often adopt in the second or third marriages,along with lobbyists, NCFA, Donaldson Institute, big business.
6)Tell your truth..but don’t be surprised what you get it isn’t going to change what they don’t believe is a problem. It isn’t their records that are sealed, its the records, of adoptee’s who are happy and need to just get on with their lives..
Gale
BSE 66
ps
to all the adoptee’s here this isn’t posted to offend you. I “do” believe those who don’t pretend adoption is a sacred cow.
It isn’t it hurts babies, children and mothers, families before adopters even came into the picture to tear that family apart.to save an orphan who has a family!
anonymous said…
“Aren’t we all fighting the same battle?” NO
“Ethical adoptions?” NO
“”In fact, whether you accept it or not, your views fall so far outside the mainstream that people in the political establishment will reject you out of hand.””
You assume far too much about too many mothers here or elsewhere. I can only speak for myself. I am at the point in my life, where the only thing I am interested in, in Adoption Land…is the acknowledgement (by any gov’t entity, adoption agency, etc.)that lots of bad things happened to a lot of good young women (decades ago)..primarily, the taking of my newborn during the closed records era, against my will, and without given any choice in the matter. I am sick to fucking death of people saying I had a ‘choice’. People cannot possibly know what transpired back in 1964 for me,(and many, many mothers back in the BSE) unless a person was laying in the same hospital room with me. But that’s another issue.
But I do have this question for the adopted people here…What constitutes ‘open records’ for you? Is it just your OBC, is it your mother’s maternity home or agency records, her medical records? Personally the only records I can see you claiming is your OBC, your ABC, possibly your adoption records and any agency records (sans judgemental, possible lies and sheerly from the perspective of the SW notes on the mother)where only the notes on the baby is written.
My raised children only have their OBC..they have no other records of their birth…the rest of that information comes directly from their mother…me! My raised children have the right to their OBC and their own medical records..but they have no rights to my personal medical records, not yesterday and certainly not today, which is protected by HIPAA rules. It is my personal choice to share with any of my children lost or raised, personal medical conditions. Jesus…are they to know every time I have a urinary tract or super-bad sinus infection??
O! BTW.. my lost/found daughter could have had her hospital baby records a few years back, she just couldn’t have mine (circa 1964), she wasn’t interested, nor is she interested in her OBC.. she likes her ABC just fine…(a mild tone of sarcasm inflicted here!) So exactly what type of records do adoptees think should be made available to them? In most places I have read..that never seems to be made quite clear..just the general ‘records’. This question is not meant to initiate rage, nastiness, and all manner of argument..I truly would like to know what records adoptees want.
Have any adoptees here that know the hospital they were born in, gone after their hospital birth medical records? With some persistence, it just may be possible to get them. They are not under lock and key. Most times they are on micro fiche stored in some warehouse by a 3rd party records storage business. No matter what the hospital records dept tells you, there is in all liklihood the great chance your hospital records can be found. Your med records occurred BEFORE surrender and will be under your original last name…that’s if you know that as well. So yes, absolutely every adoptee in this nation should have the right to his/her OBC..that is the first step in the right direction. I wish you all well in that pursuit.
“”ultimately, the records movement is not a birthmother’s rights movement.””
Excuse me Dollface anonymous person, whoever you are…
I don’t think any mother here called or even thinks of the Open Records cause…as a ‘birthmother’s rights movement’. But here’s the deal Doll..Those real ‘records’ have OUR names plastered all over it!! and not just our names either..many times the father’s name, the maternal and paternal grandparents names as well (as in agency records). I wasn’t allowed to name my newborn daughter, so all that appears on the surrender doc is ‘baby girl’ ******, that’s all! The same will be on her hospital med records and any agency records. These records, these OBC’s were written up BEFORE the act of surrender, when the baby was still legally ours, when we were the only legal mother to our own child. So, yeah, why shouldn’t mothers have copies of these records as well? I have never seen my daughter’s OBC, I have no idea what is written in those agency records, with MY name written all within. Don’t I have a right to see what was written about me BEFORE the act of surrender occurred? Don’t I have a right to my baby’s OBC BEFORE the act of surrender occurred, when I was still her one and only legal mother? You know what I got when I left the hospital…ZIP, Zilch, Zero..not even a fucking piece of scrap paper, NADA!! Not an Adios, Ciao or kiss my ass..I was yesterday’s news or yesterday’s garbage..take your pick. And those records were not sealed yet, because the adoption hadn’t taken place yet. So why can’t I have copies of MY records also, that were mine to have, that were written up BEFORE the act of surrender??
“Adoption is abusive. Not!
Dad”
“Are you adopted? Is the adoption you are involved in open or closed? Did you ever get told to your face you could not know your own motehr’s name when you were a kid?
The Improper Adoptee”
I’m so sorry you had such a terrible experience, but that’s what it was—YOUR experience. It was hardly universal. Please don’t lump other adoptees in with your opinions, they are quite capable of speaking for themselves.
I know I am.
Thanks!
Attila The Mom said…
“Adoption is abusive. Not!
Dad
Not sure if Attila wanted dad’s name there, my bet is yes as they seem to have the same opinion.
And it is “their” opinion.
Just like this in my opinion adoption is abuse it a set of lies that are pathological.
Definition: caused by or evidencing a mentally disturbed condition; “a pathological liar”; “a pathological urge to succeed”
“a pathological need to adopt”
anonymoose said:
“Not sure if Attila wanted dad’s name there, my bet is yes as they seem to have the same opinion.”
You have no idea what my opinion is, since I didn’t offer one. I stated a fact, which is that I’m perfectly capable of speaking for myself.
“And it is “their” opinion.
Just like this in my opinion adoption is abuse it a set of lies that are pathological.”
And I was offering up that opinions are just opinions—they certainly aren’t universal truths for everyone else. 🙂
Marley said:
“Well, I’ve known Dad for well over 10 years and he didn’t insult me here at all.”
Yes, yes I did. I compared you to Jeanne Morrisey, for gawds sake. I’m very sorry ’bout that. It was an incredibly stoopid thing to say.
“We have disagreed on many things over that time, almost always on matters not related to adoption. He is one of the first people ever to know about my infatuation and alas! unsuccessful pursuit of Amish men.”
Yes, I vaguely recall something about the back of a Greyhound bus.
“Dad (and J) are two of the good guys.”
I’m sincerely honored to be mentioned in the same company.
Thanks for covering my back, I really don’t deserve it.
Dad
“Just like this is my opinion, adoption is abuse it is a set of lies that pathological”
I’ll leave out your definition of pathological.
Here’s a definition for you:
Nutjob: Someone who is insane or an idiot.
Another valid definition might be someone who thinks adoptive parents are “fake” parents,that adoption is slavery, or that adoption is comparable to rape.
Here you go dipstick..number 3 applies to you.
adjective
1. of or pertaining to pathology.
2. caused by or involving disease; morbid.
3. caused by or evidencing a mentally disturbed condition: a pathological liar.
4. dealing with diseases: a pathological casebook.
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Jessica Delbalzo sees that too and blimey, she’s NOT even adopted! Go figure…
http://news.adoptionblogs.com/weblogs/a-true-anti-adoption-nut-with-whipped-cr
Dad
What are we supposed to read on that link Dad? I type it in and other stuff comes up like this-
http://www.supernaturale.com/glitter/viewtopic.php?t=36703
On that link someone has the gaul to suggest people looking for a baby to adopt go to the Craiglist. I won’t even comment on that….
The link you gave doesn’t open up by itself.
Does this mean that my natural mother was a “real” mother to me and a “fake mother” to the kids that she adopted years later. All I’m seeing here is a very bourgie WASP definition of family, which is historically incorrect.
The addy that “dad” put up here
is a piece written by an adopter!!!
No surprise that she would have her ignorant opinion of Jess.
This adoptress is Tom Hanks (actor) sister
last time I read something from her she was adopting and living on some island. Like she or that blog has any credibility
My bet is she transformed herself into a facilitator to make a “few” bucks.
Just another adopter who is trying to shut down an opinion of adoption that is negative.
There are a lot of people out there that believe adoption is wrong.
I am one of them. No one will change my mind when I see what it has done to perfect babies adopted from birth.
Jessica Debalzo says adoption is like slavery. Are you going to call her a nut job too?
Yes.
Jess DelBalzo? Since nobody asked, I’ll give her high marks for stamina.
On the downside, I think she hides a smug superiority under a veneer of sympathy.
I see her as an ideologue, prone, as ideologues so often are, to massive oversimplifying.
But hey, that’s just my opinion.
The crucial difference between adoption and slavery is that adoption is open to abuse, whereas slavery is abuse per se.
Kippa said…
“Jess DelBalzo? Since nobody asked, I’ll give her high marks for stamina.
On the downside, I think she hides a smug superiority under a veneer of sympathy.
I see her as an ideologue, prone, as ideologues so often are, to massive oversimplifying.
But hey, that’s just my opinion.”
Regarding the effects of adoption, I never could see why anyone got bent out of shape over anything Jess DelBazo opined. She’s not an adoptee, a first parent, or an adoptive parent, so what credibility could she have? Experience counts for everything.
Kathy/Meagan787
“The crucial difference between adoption and slavery is that adoption is open to abuse, whereas slavery is abuse per se”.
No-closed records IS abuse in itself, and is as forced as slavery was.
“Regarding the effects of adoption, I never could see why anyone got bent out of shape over anything Jess DelBazo opined. She’s not an adoptee, a first parent, or an adoptive parent, so what credibility could she have? Experience counts for everything”.
Yeah but she formed her opionons on adoption by seeing how dragonian the closed record system is and by talking to adoptees and recording their feelings. She has done alot of us. Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth-hell she could of just been selfish and gone to work for the NCFA…
nasty typo
she has done alot of us
CORRECTION: she has done alot for us-
NO PERV JOKES ABOUT MY TYPO WILL BE LISTENED TOO BY ME!!! LoL
Here’s a special story for those who think adoption is sooo
wonderful.
This is reality and this is an example of others truths, these kids were disabled and lived like this because of greed
and a way to make money of off kids.
Can anyone say
“HOMESTUDY” did she only have to pass one home study?
Typical of social wreckers not caring placing kids that were helpless with an animal. Who cares it probably made some money for someone besides the adopter.
Wonder if wreckers get bonuses? Bet they do, I know states make money from adoption so why not wreckers?
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-abuse-adopted-children,0,3957959.story
“No-closed records IS abuse in itself”
No. The closed records system is an example of one of the many abuses to which adoption is prone.
“Here’s a special story for those who think adoption is sooo wonderful.”
As far as I’m aware, most of the people who comment on Marley’s blog think of adoption as being at best a necessary evil.
Its evil alright
wouldn’t be necessary if there wasn’t a market for it.
Its called supply and demand.
Its a business that is fully sanctioned by our government with adoption “welfare” subsides for those who adopt.
Why not use those subsides for mothers and children to stay together?
Let me answer that the states have a nice little business going for every child they take from a mother and get adopted they make a bonus.
Don’t you get it its a business and its a lucrative business as we have seen whether its fostering or facilitating.
Eventually we as a nation won’t have to worry no one will be related to anyone its a program called eugenics and thats what our government likes a state with no family ties.
Easy to tear apart U.S. that way no one has ties to anything no genetic families.
In adoption one could even marry a family member thanks to those closed records.
Adoption makes so many more problems then it solves doesn’t even address the issues of mental health or prison that have a lot of adoptee’s in both.
Thats ok right as long as you get yours it doesn’t matter. One day it will and we are already seeing the affects from this no natural relationship with any bio family.
Kippa those who adopt will argue till their blue in face. Thats because they have adopted you certainly know the ropes don’t you.
Anonyperson said, “[Adoption] wouldn’t be necessary if there wasn’t a market for it.”
Adoption in some form or other has always existed, even in the absence of a commercial market. However, I agree that adoption as commonly practiced today is too often unnecessary. The commodification aspect is relatively recent, gaining huge impetus after the second World War.
As far as sealed records are concerned, prior to the 1930s most states had *open* records.
“In adoption one could even marry a family member thanks to those closed records.”
Just out of curiosity, Anonyperson and others like you, why do you assume that those who aren’t totally 100% anti-adoption automatically support closed records?
Inquiring minds would like to know.
You said: Why not use those subsidies for mothers and children to stay together?
I replied: I actually am a nurse and I’ve worked in a WIC program. The idea of keeping families together is still the guiding principle that the system follows. But its not possible to do it all the time. There are hopeless problems involving drugs, mental disease, and abuse. Some families just can’t be kept together and all the subsidies in the world won’t make it so. And, its not always possible to find a close relative to take children either. Sometimes foster care and adoption are the only solutions.
You said: Don’t you get its a business and its a lucrative business as we have see whether its fostering or facilitating?
I replied: Adoption should be about children not dollars on that we can agree. However, both public and private adoption agencies have expenses that have to be covered somehow. I’m all for regulating adoption fees, but no one in there right mind believes adoption services can be provided free of charge.
You said: Eventually as a nation we won’t have to worry no one will be related to anyone else. Its a program called eugenic and the government llikes a state with no family ties.
I replied: Thanks, you just validated my earlier assessment. YOU are a stark raving lunatic if you believe that sort of nonsense.
I’m out of this discussion. You’re a good example of the kind of person I’d like to lock in the attic while sane responsible people discuss issues like open records.
Why would the state want no family ties? The state is rooted in the family, and the family is the root of all oppression. What’s wrong with letting people define WHO their family is? Why should women be stuck with kids they don’t want? And, yes, there are those of us who reject female essentialism. Is there anything more brain dead than a parent?
The other anonymous,
So glad you are leaving your arguements supporting adoption because you have had such a sucessful one makes no sense to me or the adoptee’s that have been separated and not been in a good adoption.
And for those adoptive homes where there is drug abuse, abuse, and child endangerment we just let those kids stay until something happens right.
Adoptive homes have just as many problems but those get ignored until the child dies or is harmed.
Even with those who wanted a kid so bad then throw them into day care, as my son was, well those are good homes because they are adoptive homes.
A WIC worker aka nurse.
And in your spare time you.
Are you some kind of internet Dr. who can do assessements through emails?
Idiot, lock yourself in the attic!
What’s wrong with daycare? Women fought decades to free themseles from the home, and you people come around and want to return to barefoot and pregnant. Why would any sane adult want to spend 24/7 with one of those things? I’m
all for female autonomy, so it’s yoir funeral if that’s how you want to spend your life. The poltics of child welfare and “motherhood” is far more fun having to live as one or the other.
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Constitutional arguments to favor records access have been rejected by numerous courts. Court cases on our side (Sundquist and Oregon, for example) are not based on the “right” to an obc or identity, but in privacy arguments. Can you site where in the Constitution that people are guaranteed knowledge of their heritage and families?
There is nothing in the Constitution about civil rights–which are a pretty new concept, and imo, socially constructed with little legal backing. The Bill of Rights, for which I think you are arguing, protects individuals from certain proclivities of the federal government. The idea that the state can give rights is ludicrous. There are natural rights which pre-exist law and civil rights which are law driven and are doled out at the will and whim of the state and special interests Civil rights are a way to get people to believe they actually have rights, and to bow down and kiss the ass of the state for being so magnanamous as to grant them.
Sherrie Eldridge is just another Christian crackpot. Most people have no idea who she is
“You are not understanding me Kippa-closed records ARE an abuse in itself “
What I understand, and you apparently do not, is that closed records are NOT adoption.
Closed records are an abuse of adoption. They abrogate a person’s natural right to documents and information that pertain to them and their history, including OBC and adoption decree.
Top Posting:
Gak, don’t you ever get tired of preaching to the choir? What lesson is it that we all are in need of learning from you, Improper Adoptee? Adoption is evil, and personal responsibility never enters into play with your type. If there was only a way you could be paid overtime or at least minimally compensated for your angry blather.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Its evil alright
wouldn’t be necessary if there wasn’t a market for it.
Its called supply and demand.
Its a business that is fully sanctioned by our government with adoption “welfare” subsides for those who adopt.
Why not use those subsides for mothers and children to stay together?
Let me answer that the states have a nice little business going for every child they take from a mother and get adopted they make a bonus.
Don’t you get it its a business and its a lucrative business as we have seen whether its fostering or facilitating.
Eventually we as a nation won’t have to worry no one will be related to anyone its a program called eugenics and thats what our government likes a state with no family ties.
Easy to tear apart U.S. that way no one has ties to anything no genetic families.
In adoption one could even marry a family member thanks to those closed records.
Adoption makes so many more problems then it solves doesn’t even address the issues of mental health or prison that have a lot of adoptee’s in both.
Thats ok right as long as you get yours it doesn’t matter. One day it will and we are already seeing the affects from this no natural relationship with any bio family.
Kippa those who adopt will argue till their blue in face. Thats because they have adopted you certainly know the ropes don’t you.
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Gale-gave me ten minutes from the time this is posted and the changes in my comment format on my blog will be done.
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I am truly amazed and depressed by this thread. Not being much of a blog reader, I have never seen anything like the rants here that go on and on without any connection to reason, common sense, or even the original subject of Marley’s post, the death of another Russian adoptee.
Bravo to Kippa and a few others who have tried valiantly to bring this discussion back to the real world, where everything is not black and white, “Us or Them”, evil social workers and adopters vs. vituous victim adoptees and “real” mothers.
But it is a losing battle, because fanatics cannot listen to reason, and only hear themselves and each other voicing the same slogans and rants again and again, no matter what the original subject. To these people, it is always “all about me” and their experience is always universal and the gold standard by which to judge all other adoptee and birthmother experience and find them wanting or “in denial” or a tool of the adoption industry if not exactly in agreement with the party line of paranoia, victimhood and hate.
Coming from that viewpoint there can be no real dialogue, empathy, or understanding of the many shades of ambiguity and grey in an experience as complicated as adoption.
I do not deny that these people have endured real suffering because of the adoption system. We all have suffered from separation that was not necessary, loss, sealed records, secrets and lies.
So have I, so has my surrendered son. I am not coming from a place of praising adoption. It should be a last resort for those cases where it is truly the lesser evil; and those cases we shall always have with us. Some children need to be adopted by non-relatives. Some people’s adoption experience is more postitive than negative. It is not all one way and all bad.
Abolishing adoption is not a feasible answer. Fixing it to be more humane, child-centered, honest and open is. There is a lot of corruption in the present adoption system that needs to be cleaned out, but one does not have to be anti-adoption nor anti-adoptive parent to see and support that. Ethical adoption IS possible.
Not being anti-adoption DOES NOT mean supporting sealed records, corrupt practice, or adoption abuse, and it certainly does not mean supporting child abuse in any kind of home,natural or adoptive.
I have no doubt this post will engender more hateful rants. Perhaps the best way to deal with those who actually believe things like that US government wants to wipe out kinship ties or that all adoptive parents are “fake” is to see them as no different than those who believe in the Illuminati,Bigfoot,or UFO alien abductions; laugh and ignore. Attempting any dialogue just feeds the trolls and does not work.
http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/news/story/0,4136,171160,00.html
“You can leave this ‘newborn’ alone in car “
July 20, 2008
Maybe poor Chase’s adoptors should have ‘bought’ one of these babies instead…a Reborn Baby!
“”The 32-year-old mother-of-two from Edinburgh said: ‘My daughter wanted another sibling and I didn’t want to have any more children, so I made her a doll instead.'””
and a lot cheaper too!
“”She sells the dolls for between US$250 ($340) and US$1,600 and gets 10 to 15 requests a week.””
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Improper Adoptee,
I just got home its almost 12 pm pst time say your post and went over its under
Miserables,
ok
Gale
Improper Adoptee, thank you for proving my point with your latest rant. Neither I nor anyone else has discounted or mocked your horrible and abusive adoption experience. No one has questioned your suffering or your right to be angry or your right to interpret your own experience. I have simply disagreed with your extreme stance.
Now maybe you could grant other people the same courtesy instead of making huge generalizations from your own beliefs and experience to include all adoptees or all mothers.
I AM a mother from what you call the BSE. 1968. I have helped many mothers and adoptees search, and have been involved in adoption reform since the mid 70s. I am a reunited mother and my son did not have a great adoptive family, especially his adoptive mother. I have suffered just as you have. My story is mine, but it is not everybody’s. Your story is yours, and I am sorry for the pain you have endured in your life. I am not a sociopath, but a loving mother. I am not your enemy, but I do not have to endure your tantrums and insults because we disagree on some things.
Improper Adoptee,
You are an adoptee speaking out and those who love adoption are going to try and quiet you. YOU do not fit into their world. I do not fit into there world. I was a mom that was used and abused by the system. I am not a victim. I survived this abuse and now I am speaking out.
Maryanne and Kippa I know you are first moms, but I can’t believe your posts. Maryanne,
you fight with everybody even your friend Mirah who asked you not to contact her. Go back to your Cub group and preach over there.
By the way fixing adoption is such a joke. It is especially funny when I see a mom saying lets get support from adopters, they got their kids through adoption and it is wonderful, so what is there to fix?
Most of them go on into the business. Thats what makes adoption the corrupt business it is you don’t have to have anything to get into the business.
What needs to be done is STOP the baby selling business its insane and inhumane!
Ethics in adoption?
NOT possible maybe someday if those who are trying to buy a baby stop and slow the demand.
Until then we are going to have unethical agencies.
Adoption was created by the wave of adopters who just had to get a baby any baby.
Someone mentioned my responsibility in getting pregnant. I wanted my baby problem was there was another woman who would pay for him and I being unmarried which wasn’t a crime didn’t have any money.
Wish I had the adoption welfare they give out nowadays, wish all mothers had a chance just like the fosters and adopters.
But ethics in adoption what a laugh. And working with the adopters what a joke.
Maryanne, you are one of the most depressed people according to all those know you or have known you so don’t preach anything about depression here.
so why are you here? if you feel this way?
feeding the trolls is right just how long have you been here Maryanne, in this conversation or posting on this thread? since you thought you could add your two cents and try to put some adoptee or mother down. Its what YOU do best. Go home! your’re the Troll
This entry was about the tragic death of Dmitry Yakolev. Topic drift is normal, but at this point Dima and his story have been mangled beyond recognition. This entry is about a dead little boy, and he has been dishonored.
This entry and the other entries on Dima get regular hits from the State Department, the Department of Justice, and lots of Russians looking for information on the case–maybe even the Russian government. What do they get but rants about personal issues. I’m all for ranting, but it should be a rant on the real causes of the adoption mess: hypernatalism, pediacentricity,neocolonalism,poverty, patriarchy greed, corruption and secrecy.
Nobody here that I’ve seen has denigrated the experience of others. There is much pain for many in adoption, some have had horrible abusive experiences. We are all sympathetic to that. But what I and others object to is the confluence of narrow middle class essentialism with the universilzation of experience ending with the idea that anyone who doesn’t agree with either is the enemy.
I don’t believe newborn adoption is necessary except in extreme cases or in cases where a mother doesn’t want to bothered with a kid. In fact, I think that’s the best reason of all. Not all women want or need to be mothers.(I’m not addressing fathers issues here) There is so much more to do with your life than that. If that is what you want, then it shouldn’t be taken away from you. Families are rooted in patriarchy and oppression. If that is what you want for yourself, fine but don’t insist that the rest of us must accept that model. Adoption as its practiced in the US is a patriarchal system. If you want to live under that fine, don’t expect the rest of us to jump into the abyss with you.
Why hate individuals when you’ve got a whole corrupt system and practice to hate? Why hate Dad or Kippa, or Maryanne, or any number of us when we are all pawns in a industrial-state Ponzi game?
Is it that difficult to acknowledge and fight systemic rot or is it just more comfortable to demonize individuals due to adoptive status and refuse to acknowledge who they are as persons,and what they have done to make an unhappy situation better?
As long as people remain mired in the industry constructed “triad” they will never stop the abuse and pain. They will just continue the abusive system.
Adoption is not about your or me or anybody else. It’s about power and greed and hypernatalism. Why not address those issues.
Marley,
Those who you mentioned “Dad” Kippa, and Maryanne did just as much hating.
they have their agendas and it trying to prove what they believe is right.
They are not innocent when it comes to name called, or anything else. In fact, two of those people have participated in adopting from this corrupt system. The third one is affiliated with an sight that has added adopters, if she thinks that will help her cause so be it I personally don’t those who adopt have their agenda its getting a kid and then wanting to possibly take about reform after the fact.
So lets be fair here they are not the saintly, special ones that only care about reforming adoption.
Marley,
One more thing if you don’t want kids that your business. It isn’t any of mine.
I wanted everyone of mine and NONE of them were planned.
And that is my business not a social wrecker, or an adopter’s it my life until those who lust after others babies come unto the scene.
I am sorry those who didn’t get pg couldn’t just don’t make it my problem and take my baby which thats exactly what happened.
Lucky your mom did have you or we all wouldn’t be here.
Stating an opinion is not a hate crime I don’t think you’re a hater or anyone else is a hater. We just state opinions.
I fail to see what is wrong with “a site that has added adopters”, though I don’t know exactly what that means. BN has always had adopter members as we have always had natural parents members, and members who have not connection with adoption. We are strictly an adoptee rights organiztion and our Executive Committee, by virtue of our bylaws only permits bastards to be on it. That will ever change. AAAFC has adopter “members.” Every successful records campaings had had adopters. Sen D, the sponsor of the NH law is an adopter and totally dedicated to records rights. Many adopters, in fact, support adoptee rights.
I know nearly everyone who posts her regularly. I’ve met many of them. I know what they have done and what they believe, and none of them oppose us. None of us pathologize the others due to their adoption status. There’s a whole big world out there of adoptees, natural parents adoptees who work together. We are not the enemy.
And sure, there are adopter enemies, just as there are natural parent enemies and Benedict Bastards.
There is no such thing as a hate crime. Just more socialist inspired state action. Something is either against the law or not. The impetus of the crime is irrelevant. For every “hate crime” there is a negative reaction. It bites back. Andrea Dworkin got a great big bite on her ass. ha!
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I think those who live here in America and that have been adopted and died should have a Memorial here too.
Why only the kids from Russia?
Why not all kids that die after being adopted, if those you say read here maybe they can take a look and open their eyes to what is happening instead of covering up the abuses and deaths.
One more thing Marley. I don’t believe that adopters want open records if they DID they would be open! They were and are closed for their protection. There might be a few but there are far more who want not part of open records, and thats wrong especially after enjoying raising a child they adopt. Selfish, in my opinion.
I think there should be memorial pages for others who have died under adoption. I chose Russia because it, not the US, is my home country and where my where my self-defined family lives. Niels from Pound Pup Legacy has a lot of information on abused and dead adoptees on his page.
Improper Adoptee, I’m not going to deny your personal experience and pain in adoption. But they are your experiences, they do not represent everyone’s experience. My main concern is that rhetoric like yours can be extremely harmful to the restoration of adoptee rights.If you testified at a legislative hearing and said things that you do here, the bill would be killed on the spot. I’m not saying that’s right, but that’s the way it is. It was shown quite clearly in the Health Committee of the Ohio House this year that leggies don’t give a rat’s ass about anyone’s personal experience OR facts. They just walked out of the hearing in mid-testimony.
If you have never worked to get a bill pass, you have no idea what kind of strategies and tactics are needed. Years of developing relationhips, one-one one meetings, media placcements, mooney–How much hard work goes into a bill, only to see it flushed by long-entrenched and powerful special interests who don’t even testify in public and come in at the very last minute. In Ohio it was not adoption agencies that opposed records access. It was Ohio Right to Life. They killed the original bill. In Ohio, at least, the anti-aborts have the absolute nod on what passes and doesn’t pass that they put into their purview. In other states its the Bishops or the ACLU. In fact, agenicees tend to support. Not all, of course.
Until bastards start exerting real political power on a massive scale not much is going to change. So-called reformists groups like to compromise the rights of constituents away. New Jersey, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Missouri are some of them. They shut out non-compromisers like BN and local groups who refuse to take anything less than all. But guess what! No matter what absurd compromise they come up with they still lose, because RTL or the Bishops or the ACLU don’t want records for anybody.
My main concern is that rhetoric like yours can be extremely harmful to the cause of adoptee rights.
This is the point I’ve been trying to make as well about Improper Adoptee and a few others. It doesn’t bother me so much that some people hold such bizarre and extreme ideas. What bothers me is that they publicly express these ideas and do so obnoxiously.
I’ve been reading some of the latest posts. Apparently, some of these folks are now getting offended that their nutsy views are being ridiculed. My goodness what a double standard they have! They’ve been attacking the crap out of Dad and others. They can dish it out, but they sure can’t take it.
If you testified at a legislative hearing and said the things you do here, the bill would be killed on the spot.
Some people seem incapable of understanding the sensitive nature of all this. Very few state legislators have any experience with adoption at all. Getting them to support open records requires a huge amount of education. The effort is gargantuan for a movement that has limited resources.
Worst of all, there are stereotypes out there. There are legislators and people who believe that adoptees are mentally fragile people who need to be protected. Now imagine what would happen if some adoptee showed up making some of the absurd statements we’ve seen here. “I believe adoption is like rape”. “I believe adoptive parents are fake parents”. “I believe adoption is an attempt by the state to destroy the family”.
One thing I worry about is this blog being read by people who might take these statements out of context and try to use them against us.
I personally am tired of the nutjobs. Some of them are even starting to say they don’t support the unqualified opening of records. I’m convinced their nastiness drives good people away from the movement.
Since they are unable to lead, seem unwilling to follow, I wish they would just get out of the way.
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“Those who you mentioned “Dad” Kippa, and Maryanne did just as much hating.”
they have their agendas and it trying to prove what they believe is right.
They are not innocent when it comes to name called, or anything else. In fact, two of those people have participated in adopting from this corrupt system.”
So, you gave one up to the system.
I fail to see the difference.
Now what came first, the suppoly or the demand?
“So, you gave one up to the system.
I fail to see the difference.
Now what came first, the suppoly or the demand?”
That’s ENOUGH, Anonymous.
Just drop it.
“kippa”
Don’t tell me thats enough and to drop it!
You have your nerve!
I don’t have to drop anything. Whats the matter don’t you like it known that you like the adopter hat better than mother hat. lol
I’ll drop it when I am ready to drop it so keep your mouth shut!!!!
You don’t get it, do you?
You must be very confused, Anonymous.
Whatev. Shoot your mouth off.
I REALLY DON’T CARE.
I’m out of this discussion.
And I anticipate that reasonable people, regardless of their connection to adoption and their opinions thereof, will do the same.
Good bye,
Kippa, good luck on playing that role you play so well.
Its all about what hat fits best and the adopter one fits your head just right.
And I DO get it!
Its all about those who can buy kids to fill a need for the one they can’t or don’t have.
see ya around as you do make the rounds..for sure.
Just remember this you are not in control of when I quit speaking or how I speak. YOU speak for yourself and stop trying to control others by your mouth.
What about that adopter, who roasted the little boy he adopted and his mental state? Was it a heart attack or a breakdown only his defense lawyer knows for sure.Lawyered up for sure and according to his lawyer there is no hurry.
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Lots of biological parents murder their own children, as well. Diane Downs, Casey Anthony, Susan Smith…just to name a few. All these women were biological moms who murdered their children.